👁️Sauron and Melkor...

[Lhunithiliel]

Do me a favour, you - learned heads, and try to help me out about a question that was bothering me every time the armies of the Valar came "on stage"...

Where did the Valar take their warriors for their armies?

 

[Nautilus]

Where did the Valar take their warriors for their armies?

Vanyar, Teleri and some Noldor who remained in Aman, most possible led by Maiar officers.

I don't think that the Númenóreans could defeat the Valar; if it seems like I said that, sorry. I said that the Númenóreans thought they could invade Valinor. Since they are not lunatics, they had a pretty strong army; strong enough, I think, to defeat Morgoth's armies at the end of the First Age. I think that the Númenórean war machine could take any other army on history -- including an army of Valinorean Elves. BUT, I think that the Valar themselves are a different story. Even if the Númenóreans could wipe out every Elf in Aman, they still had to deal with the Valar -- and I don't think they could do that, because the Valar were pure spirit. Even if Númenór had more military power than the Valar, they could not ever defeat them -- or so I think. But the question was Númenor x Morgoth, not Númenor x Valar...

Isildur, Elendil and Gil-Galad dealt with Sauron(the strongest Maia, close to a Vala in power) while he had the One Ring on the finger, and not only defeated him, but "killed" him as well, at the cost of Elendil and Gil-Galad's death. Two Children of Iluvatar for one Maia is a pretty score

Hmm, Valar and Valinorean Maiar -- good Maiar -- were not incarnates. They could shed their bodies as raiments. Or at least the Valaquenta says so, if I'm not going crazy.

But as the Ainulindalë tells, "the Valar took to themselves shape and hue" when they entered Eä at the beginning of Time. They became self-incarnate. "The making of a lambe [language] is the chief character of an Incarnate," Pengolodh the sage of Gondolin observed. "The Valar, having arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves" (WJ:397)

Source:

www.ardalambion.com

~Regards,

Nautilus

 

[Eriol]

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot perceive them, though they be present.

I guess Pengolodh was speculating a bit on that quote... for I think the Ainulindalë, being told to the Eldar directly by the Valar, should be the most reliable source about this matter. (This quote is from the Ainulindalë). Where is InderjitS to clarify the matter for us when we need him?

 

[Confusticated]

Where was Pengolodh speculating here?

The Valar did have their own spoken language to use when in bodily form. That the Valar used this language when in a human-like form does not mean that they were perminantly in that form. The Valar arrayed themselves at times.

I don't think anything Pengolodh says of them in Dangweth is inconsistent with Ainulindale, or if so it is not what has been quoted here.

Pengoldoh can not really be more unreliable that anything in the Silmarillion for much of the information in it was told to Elfwine by him and then translated. At least that was Pengolodh's role before the crazy complication of the origin of the Silmarillion.

Edit: That quote from Ardalamion is not from Dangweth it is from Quendi & Eldar.... oops ... but it remains that I do not see how it conflicts with Ainulindale.

 

[Eriol]

Letter 211

Since the Valar had no language of their own, not needing one, they had no 'true' names, only identities, and their names were conferred on them by the Elves, being in origin all, as it were, 'nicknkames', referring to some striking peculiarity, function, or need.

That's the speculation of Pengolodh, that the Valar would make a language for themselves.

 

[Confusticated]

Hmm I don't know how to explain that quote from Letters. I haven't read it but it does seem clear.

While Pengolodh in that quote was giving his reasoning for why it can be assumed that the Valar made their own language, he does go on to tell that they know this did happen, because it is recorded in elvish lore, some few of the Eldar learned Valarin, and he even gives some Valarin words, some of which were used by the Eldar, for example Mahanaxar.

 

[Eriol]

And I haven't read WotJ . So we have a mystery here.

 

[Beleg]

Silmarillion

. But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart.

You are indeed true but one can argue that In Middle-Earth, outside Beleriand, Morgoth had recruited a lot of easterlings in his service which fought for him later.

I am giving the Quote from Silmarillion at some length. I am in some doubt about the textual accuracy of the text, since most of it would be taken from the Early 1930's Quenta and some probably adapted from the Tale of Years but its the best we have good since in his later writing, Tolkien sadly didn't get to complete the revision of Silmarillion.

The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not contain it; and all the North was aflame with war.
But it availed him not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth; and the uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after. And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar; and they were avenged in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galdor and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.
But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed; and all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the might of the Valar descended into the deeps of the earth. There Morgoth stood at last at bay, and yet unvaliant. He fled into the deepest of his mines, and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime, and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees. And the two Silmarils which remained to Morgoth were taken from his crown, and they shone unsullied beneath the sky; and Eönwë took them, and guarded them.
Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and' the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more.

The words in Bold indicate to me that the power of Morgoth was much, much greater at the Last Battle then at the Nirnaeth. Imagine the power of the Dragons If they could even momentarily defeat the host of the Valar.

Morgoth had become incarnate,

. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

Myths Transformed

Why did he do so,

Ibid.

Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it

Men when they lost their lives never returned, since Elves were bound with the fate of Arda, and as long as Arda endureth they couldn't 'die' that is lose the ability to gain bodily form again, so they could also be reborn again.

I don't think the Valar were 'Incarnates'. They didn't have the yearn of controlling the flesh of the earth, so they didn't need to have a stronger grip of their Hroa.

In the later legandarium, the relative power of Balrogs was increased, and the classic example of the reactive of a common elf is found when Legolas saw the Balrog. He was greatly afraid.
Sure some of the top-notch warriors of the Noldor and Numenoreans, not to mention Sindar might have been able to fight off and beat the Balrogs, but not all could do that.

Could they deal with the flying dragons? The Balrogs? Even the Valarian forces were repelled by the sheer strength of the Flying dragons. And during their five hundred and more years sojourn, how many Balrogs were they able to kill? Two? Disappointing I would say.

Just look at the destruction caused by Glaurung and he was only one single dragon. Just imagine how much destruction a hoard of Dragons might have caused.

Sauron wanted to destroy Numenor because,

1. Of the deeds of their father, which had brought both Sauron and his Master, Humilation.
2. Because of the help Tar-Ministair provided in the Battles of the Second age.
3. Because Numenoreans were invading [or so he thought] in the realm and areas he governed.
4. And most of all, because of the humilation he suffered intially at the hands of Tar-Calion.

Another Interesting Question: If Numenoreans hadn't taken part in the affairs of Middle-Earth in second age, and gained Sauron hate, then would Sauron have left them alone, or would he have thought of them as a potential threat and tried to dispose them off?

Posted by Eriol
Am I the only one who is impressed by the description of Ar-Pharazôn's fleet? I really can't see how the armies of Morgoth could ever defeat that.

Tolkien didn't describe the host of Morgoth at the War of Wrath, with the same eloquence and richness as that of the passage in Akalabeth concerning Tar-Calion's fleet.
If he had done so, I am sure you would have been impressed a great deal.

The 'self-carnation'of Valar is that they took Bodily forms, in the hue of Arda, because they were to live in it till it endured; it is very different from the more çorporeal 'incarnation' of the Children of Eru and even Orcs.

Who says the Ainulindale is written by Penegolodh? It was written by Rumil and Rúmil wasn't speculating, because the idea of Self-carnation doesn't contradict your Quote.

 

[Eriol]

As for your question in bold, Beleg, I guess Númenor would attack Sauron in the same way. The rise of pride and warmongering in Númenor was quite independent from Sauron.

Yes, perhaps the description of Ar-Pharazôn's fleet is simply more detailed than that of Morgoth's armies -- but I still think that they thought they had a chance of invading Valinor. That's not a small feat.

And the Ainulindalë, whoever wrote it, was dictated by the Valar, so it can be considered completely reliable -- in my opinion. The contradiction was the Valarin language, and that seems a mystery to me right now. Finally, you seem to have cleared up the matter of the incarnation of the Ainur with the quote from Myths Transformed.

 

[Beleg]

Another interesting Quote,

Quendi and Eldar, WOTJ

Even if we had no knowledge of it,' he says, 'we could not reasonably doubt that the Valar had a lambe of their own. We know that all members of their order were incarnated by their own desire, and that most of them chose to take forms like those of the Children of Eru, as they name us. In such forms they would take on all the characters of the Incarnates that were due to the co-operation of hröa with indwelling fëa, for otherwise the assumption of these forms would have been needless, and they arrayed themselves in this manner long before they had any cause to appear before us visibly. Since, then, the making of a lambe is the chief character of an Incarnate, the Valar, having arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves.

He is Penegolodh and the Quote is a part of a passage talking about Valarin tongue, as Nóm hinted before and from where Nautilus provdied the reference given in Ardalambion's Quenya Course.

I still think that the 'self-incarnation' of Valar is hugely different from the 'incarnation'of the Children, although Ainur who spend too much of their power on the ordering of their hroa and the desire to control it, if slain, gradually lose their re-incarnative abilities.

 

[Confusticated]

Another Interesting Question: If Numenoreans hadn't taken part in the affairs of Middle-Earth in second age, and gained Sauron hate, then would Sauron have left them alone, or would he have thought of them as a potential threat and tried to dispose them off?

I do not think he would have left them alone for long. I think he would eventually have tried to bring them under his rule, and when they resist war would break out. It could be that Sauron would have, for a time, thought Numenor too strong to battle with and have just left them alone for awhile, but eventually when his rule in Middle-earth was unquestionable and his power at the height of its potential, I think he would assail them.

I still think that the 'self-incarnation' of Valar is hugely different from the 'incarnation'of the Children, although Ainur who spend too much of their power on the ordering of their hroa and the desire to control it, if slain, gradually lose their re-incarnative abilities.

It is undeniable Beleg.

Melkor for example, I would say become incarnated only when he lost his ability to 'array' himself. I would say incarnation is not arraying but the bounding of a fea within a hroa... to become as one of the incarnates. But this is technicalities and I know what you mean by 'self-incarnating'... I just don't recall Tolkien using that (correct me if I am wrong) and to me it doesn't seem right.

 

[Bucky]

As the First Age progressed, Morgoth's power diminished and Sauron was greater than him in comparison.

Where did you ever get that idea?
Saron - Maia
Morgoth - Vala

End of discussion.


Did Sauron serve Morgoth in the 2nd & 3rd Ages?

No. '(Sauron) was only less evil than his master (Morgoth)in that for long, he served another & not himself. BUT, in later years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth & a ghost of his malice, & walked behind him on the same ruinous path into the void.'

Could the Numenoreans have defeated Morgoth's armies at the height of their power?

Never, if just for the simple fact that they would not have a single warrior that could defeat a balrog.
The only beings that defeated balrogs were Maiar & High Elves - actually, they all just broke even as in each case we know of, both combatants died.

Add in the winged dragons & there's no chance whatsoever.

 

[Inderjit S]

Where did you ever get that idea?

Sauron was 'freater' effectively in the Second age then Morgoth at the end of the first. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature he had not yet fallen so low

Myths Transformed

 

[Nautilus]

Originally posted by Bucky
Where did you ever get that idea?
Could the Numenoreans have defeated Morgoth's armies at the height of their power?

Never, if just for the simple fact that they would not have a single warrior that could defeat a balrog.
The only beings that defeated balrogs were Maiar & High Elves - actually, they all just broke even as in each case we know of, both combatants died.

What makes one think that a Man of Westernesse was a warrior inferior to a Noldo or a Sinda?

~Nautilus

 

[Beleg]

Infact we are told that the people of Numenor were physically more powerful then the Elves. I am not saying that all the people are very powerful, only that some great, hefty Numenorean would have been a good match for an Elven warrior. We have to remember that some of the people came from the stout House of Hador who were physcially a bit greater then the other Edain kindered. Elendil the tall wrestled with Sauron himself on Mount Doom. A great Numenorean, at the height of his power, would have been a good match for a Balrog.
We dont find an occasion where a Man fights a Balrog, sadly none of the Edainic cheiftains got to fight the Balrogs, so we don't really know how they would have fared against them.
Were the Winged Dragons powerful enough to fly all the way from Middle-earth to Elenna? Won't they be espised and then something could have been done to counter them? Numenor had an added advantage of being an Island and it's people were the greatest marriners of alltime.

 

[Bucky]

Well, I was assuming the Numenoreans would be invading M-E & a battle on an open plain would ensure.
Nobody said a thing about INVADING Numenor....

As for Men vs Balrogs, the fact that it wasn't Men but always High Elves fighting balrogs should tell you something.

Could a Numenorean defeat a Elf, Sindar or Noldor in battle?
I'd bet it was possible.

But fighting a balrog isn't just who's the better fighter.
I don't see any Sindar fighting balrogs either, just Noldor.

Remember what Gandalf tells Frodo about The High Elves of Rivendell:

"They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen & Unseen they have tremendous power."

So, that's where the High Elves get their power to fight balrogs, Ringwraiths & such.

It's not because they're better with a sword or a spear, it's due to the power that lies within them.

On the other side, it WAS Isildur who 'dealt the enemy (Sauron) his death blow'. Of course, how many High Elves were nearby helping up until that final blow?

"

 

[Beleg]

But fighting a balrog isn't just who's the better fighter.
I don't see any Sindar fighting balrogs either, just Noldor.

That was because fate shaped the things in such a way that it was Noldor who participated in all the big fight's against Morgoth. I don't doubt that a Sindar warrior like Elwe or Beleg would have done atleast as good as the Noldor if he would have fought against the Balrogs.

"They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen & Unseen they have tremendous power."

So, that's where the High Elves get their power to fight balrogs, Ringwraiths & such.

Comeon! You can't be thinking that Balrogs and Ringwraiths are the same? Ringwraiths are the un-dead, while Balrogs for all their heidousness are incarnate spirits! There is a difference between them, and also the Balrog in Moria seemed to possess more terror in its train then a Ringwraith.

On the other side, it WAS Isildur who 'dealt the enemy (Sauron) his death blow'. Of course, how many High Elves were nearby helping up until that final blow?

Well two high-elves couldnt do something which Isildur did.

Well, I was assuming the Numenoreans would be invading M-E & a battle on an open plain would ensure.
Nobody said a thing about INVADING Numenor....

I never asked who would be attacking who, I just ask a generalized question, including all possible scenarios.
I don't that fighting the Balrog would need as much Spirtual power as it wouldneed to fight a ringwraith [Oh and don't you think that the Numenoreans in the Army of Last Alliance would have fought the ringwraiths? pretty successfully too!]

 

[Bucky]

No, I think Ringwraiths & balrogs are in the same spirit or 'unseen' realm. Different levels of power, but still necessary to have the power the High Elves or Maiar have in the 'unseen' world to sucessfully oppose them.

That was because fate shaped the things in such a way that it was Noldor who participated in all the big fight's against Morgoth. I don't doubt that a Sindar warrior like Elwe or Beleg would have done at least as good as the Noldor if he would have fought against the Balrogs.

Elwe WAS a High Elf. Remember the trip he took to check out Valinor on behalf of the Teleri?
Beleg, sorry since it's your namesake, but he wasn't in the same ballpark power-wise as the High Elves.
Tolkien says as much himself.

 

[Beleg]

Beleg, sorry since it's your namesake, but he wasn't in the same ballpark power-wise as the High Elves.

Oh, I won't be too sure of it.
Barring Fingolfin and Feanor, I think that he could hold his own against any other Noldor.
The High-elves were glorified because they had lived in the bless of Aman, which won't strengthen them physically. Elwe can be called a High-elf, but he was primarily a Sindarin and remained in Aman considerably less then the exiled Noldo.
Don't you think Noldor would have great hunters in their race? Amrod and Amros fancied hunting, I am sure other did that too, and still Beleg was called the greatest Huntsman.
Infact Celegorm was a Huntsman in Valinor and was called a friend of Orome and yet that title wasnt granted to him.
And if Beleg was such a great Hunter, in the wild woods of Beleriand he would surely have met with evil and dreadful spirits that might have been leftovers from Morgoth's earlier reign.
To be such a successful hunter he must have had some mettle, not less then that of even the foremost Noldor.

No, I think Ringwraiths & balrogs are in the same spirit or 'unseen' realm. Different levels of power, but still necessary to have the power the High Elves or Maiar have in the 'unseen' world to sucessfully oppose them.

I beg to differ here, IMO no Otherwordly power is needed to defeat the Balrog's, they are not undead, just spirits embodied in the flesh of Arda, but are skilled warriors, possess lethal weapons and have a terifying appearence.

Tolkien says as much himself.

Infact, Tolkien doesn't say that. It is merely an [Incorrect] analogy you are making.
And I believe those that lived in the guarded realm of Doriath also held some spirtual power, due to the influence of Melian.
Tolkien merely mentions that the High-elves [Note Gandalf didn't say 'only' the High elves] weild a tremendous power against undeed [and living]. We know nothing about what type of powers the Sindar [Of Doriath] would have, [Although Legolas, who is a Sindarin Elf wasn't really the bravest thing in Moria, but then again he was bread in a Pre-dominantly Silvan culture, and was born in Thirdage, when the Elves had start fading and their real glory had left them] in an actual battle against a Ringwraith, similarly we also don't know how they would have fared against Balrogs.

Do you have any proof that the Balrogs were Undead?

Infact in Quenta Silmarillion of Morgoth's Ring they are said to be creatures made by Morgoth.
They could be slain while the Ringwraiths couldn't [They could only be destroyed when their respective rings were destroyed or the one ring failed].

 

[Bucky]

Infact, Tolkien doesn't say that. It is merely an [Incorrect] analogy you are making.

In fact, Tolkien DOES say that......

The Sil:

'...the Elves had a greater wisdom, and skill & beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. Only in the realm of Doriath...did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi....'

Then there's the statement, I can't find it off the top of my head, but I think it's either in Of Turin Turambar in The Sil or The Narn in UT, where it is stated (paraphrased) that "even though the Grey Elves were no match for the Noldor, in the ways of Middle-earth, they had a wisdom beyond Men.'

The High-elves were glorified because they had lived in the bless of Aman, which won't strengthen them physically.

I beg to differ here, IMO no Otherwordly power is needed to defeat the Balrog's, they are not undead, just spirits embodied in the flesh of Arda, but are skilled warriors, possess lethal weapons and have a terifying appearence.

Did Gandalf beat Durin's Bane by mere 'warrior' strength?
The battle on The Bridge Of Khazad-Dum is a confrontation of 'magical' power, just as is the spell confrontation in the Chamber Of Mazarbul.

Tolkien merely mentions that the High-elves [Note Gandalf didn't say 'only' the High elves] weild a tremendous power against undeed [and living].

That's not what Gandalf said.
You, Beleg, keep saying 'undead'. Tolkien & I keep saying 'Unseen'.
Since Tolkien makes the statement that there is a 'seen ' realm & an 'unseen' realm, & those two types are direct and all encompassing opposites, we can safely assume that there is only 2 realms, 'Unseen' & 'Seen'. There's no other option. Everything falls into one or the other. As such, Balrogs as well as Ringwraithes, High Elves, Dark Elves, Men, Dwarves & Hobbits must all belong to one, the other or both.
Since High Elves can exist in both at once, I think it's a pretty safe bet that Maiar like Balrogs do too. Gandalf most likely did too, although I doubt any direct evidence either way exists.

We know nothing about what type of powers the Sindar [Of Doriath]

Read the first 2 statements I made. We DO know something: They were less than the High Elves.
Sindar = Dark Elves. High Elves = Calaquendi.
Case closed there.

They could be slain while the Ringwraiths couldn't [They could only be destroyed when their respective rings were destroyed or the one ring failed].

The Lord Of The Nazgul, aka 'Number One', was killed without either of those things happening, now wasn't he?