Second-guessing and Misunderstanding Tolkien

Squint-eyed Southerner · Sep 19, 2022

I actually posted that because of some of the "answers". 😄

ZehnWaters · Sep 19, 2022

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
To me, Sauron must have had some body at one point, but later that was diminished. If I remember rightly, at the end of The Lord of the Rings, he could not return in any bodily form.

Interesting question. Thanks for the article too, Squint.

My understanding was that he had, indeed, reformed a physical body by the end of the 3rd Age. Without his Ring it took a lot longer (also he'd been killed twice in succession, which is highly disorienting).

Elbereth Vala Varda · Sep 19, 2022

Very intriguing. What gives you that impression and understanding?

Squint-eyed Southerner · Sep 19, 2022

Tolkien explained the difficulties of reforming in a letter.

ZehnWaters · Sep 19, 2022

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
Very intriguing. What gives you that impression and understanding?

Tolkien discussed the difficulties for Ainur in reforming a physical body and how disorienting it is to be killed. That Sauron reformed, I believe it's stated somewhere but we also know that Gollum refers to Sauron as having a hand (and he'd seen him by this point).

Elbereth Vala Varda · Sep 19, 2022

Hmm... Very very interesting. If it isn't too much trouble, is there a link to this letter?

Radaghast · Sep 20, 2022

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
Say, Radaghast, I'm not a Quora member, so maybe you'd like to go through this thread and correct some of the mistakes:

Did Sauron have a body in the Third Age?

Answer (1 of 3): Yes. After the fall of Numenor he was vastly diminished and cursed to inhabit a horrible and evil body (depriving him of his ability to shapeshift and deceive people through his feigned beauty). At the battle of the Last Alliance, Sauron killed Elendil and Gil-Galad but was so b...

www.quora.com

Yeah, you're going to get that on Quora a lot 😄 Beyond my power to correct, unfortunately; one can only comment and suggest. I think the answers are generally correct, though.

The question of Sauron's corporeality is a common one on Quora, thanks to the Peej's films.

Elthir · Sep 20, 2022

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
Hmm... Very very interesting. If it isn't too much trouble, is there a link to this letter?

Here's a couple references from Tolkien's letters. I can get the numbers if wanted, but for now I'm just pasting this from an old post of mine -- where I was apparently too lazy to note the numbers!

I gave one date however!

"I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished." JRRT 1957

Tolkien continues (I'm skipping some stuff here) . . .

" . . . It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was "real", that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, that might be called the "will" or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear "mythologically" in the present book."

Notable points here, in my opinion:

A) the impossibility of rebuilding not after the loss of the One, but after its destruction

3) Sauron rebuilds his body after the Last Alliance (that it took longer also fits well with the implication of certain statements in the text and The Tale of Years)

And (another letter) . . .

"After which the Third Age began, a Twilight Age, a Medium Aevum, the first of the broken and changed world; the last of the lingering dominion of visible fully incarnate Elves, and the last also in which Evil assumes a single dominant incarnate shape."

Here Sauron would appear to be incarnate in the Third Age as well.

There's more, and add the description of Sauron's hand in The Lord of the Rings.

Radaghast · Sep 20, 2022

ZehnWaters said:
Tolkien discussed the difficulties for Ainur in reforming a physical body and how disorienting it is to be killed. That Sauron reformed, I believe it's stated somewhere but we also know that Gollum refers to Sauron as having a hand (and he'd seen him by this point).

Yup:

‘Tales out of the South,’ Gollum went on again, ‘about the tall Men with the shining eyes, and their houses like hills of stone, and the silver crown of their King and his White Tree: wonderful tales. They built very tall towers, and one they raised was silver-white, and in it there was a stone like the Moon, and round it were great white walls. O yes, there were many tales about the Tower of the Moon.’

‘That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil built’ said Frodo. ‘It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy.’

‘Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering. ‘And He hated Isildur’s city.’

"The Black Gate Is Closed"

Plus Pippin sees Sauron in the Stone of Orthanc; he certainly doesn't see a spirit. And Denethor suggests to Pippin that Sauron is able to fight, or least appear on the battlefield when he tells him, "He uses others as his weapons" as do "all great lords". A spirit is what he becomes after the Ring's destruction in the chapter "Mount Doom", one that "gnaws itself in the shadows" (in Gandalf's words), this time for good. This should be beyond any dispute. The whole point about the Ring is that it lets Sauron reincarnate. But again, thanks to the movies, which outright contradict the book on this, it continues to be a "controversy" and some continue to assume that Sauron is formless during the events of LoR. (This is all meant as a general comment, btw)

Ent · Sep 20, 2022

Elthir said:
I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished.

Letter # 200

Elthir said:
It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape

Also letter #200

That whole letter is about incarnation and related/tangential issues

ZehnWaters · Sep 20, 2022

Elthir said:
Aevum,

Oof, there's a word I've never heard before. Now I've got to go study Catholic theology some more.

Radaghast said:
Plus Pippin sees Sauron in the Stone of Orthanc; he certainly doesn't see a spirit. And Denethor suggests to Pippin that Sauron is able to fight, or least appear on the battlefield when he tells him, "He uses others as his weapons" as do "all great lords". A spirit is what he becomes after the Ring's destruction in the chapter "Mount Doom", one that "gnaws itself in the shadows" (in Gandalf's words), this time for good. This should be beyond any dispute. The whole point about the Ring is that it lets Sauron reincarnate. But again, thanks to the movies, which outright contradict the book on this, it continues to be a "controversy" and some continue to assume that Sauron is formless during the events of LoR. (This is all meant as a general comment, btw)

For the most part I liked the films but I feel like Tolkien would have HATED the idea of a giant flaming eye. We already know (thanks to various letters, not the least of which his response to Pauline Baynes drawings) how he responded to incorrect renderings of his characters. I may not have always liked how Christopher Tolkien responded to things but it seems to largely be akin to how his father did.

Elbereth Vala Varda · Sep 20, 2022

Thank you for all of this information. Definitely worth a few more perusals.

Squint-eyed Southerner · Sep 20, 2022

A purchase of the Letters is a definite recommendation.

Radaghast · Sep 20, 2022

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
Hey, you should write some of these up in story form and post them in our fanic forum -- not to tell you what to do, of course! 😉

I see someone else had an idea for Radagast the Green.
View attachment 15789

Is that a fighter-ranger-druid cross class?

Elbereth Vala Varda · Sep 20, 2022

Do they come in a book just like anything else? Where do you purchase them?

Radaghast · Sep 20, 2022

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
Do they come in a book just like anything else? Where do you purchase them?

Yes, many of them have been collected in a book.

Elbereth Vala Varda · Sep 20, 2022

Oh thank you! I will have to add this to my ever-growing list of books I would love to read. This one would do me well to have on hand.

Ent · Sep 20, 2022

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
Where do you purchase them?

Amazon.com has them. I got mine in the digital version of course, for quick research (as well as reading.)

Elbereth Vala Varda · Sep 20, 2022

Thank you also, Enting. I might see if a quick eBook or loan from my library could familiarize me with the material.

Ent · Sep 20, 2022

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
This one would do me well to have on hand.

Indeed. Clarifies many things.
Currently paperback is $17.99 and digital is $9.99.

Second-guessing and Misunderstanding Tolkien

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Lost in the Chetwood

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Silently Observing Observed Silence

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Silently Observing Observed Silence

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