Second-guessing and Misunderstanding Tolkien

[Deimos]

If anyone was the "President", Saruman was President of the White Council before. 🤪

AI question... correction...troll AI question

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

AI question... correction...troll AI question

You mean you hope it is an AI question!

 

[Radaghast]

AI question... correction...troll AI question

Scary thought...

This person has asked two questions so far, the other being "Who would win in a fight, facts or opinions?" 😐

 

[Deimos]

You mean you hope it is an AI question!

Yep.....If it's a real person asking it, well, as they say: "And these people are allowed to vote??!!"

 

[Olorgando]

If anyone was the "President", Saruman was President of the White Council before. 🤪

Actually, in the LotR craze started by the publication of the Ballantine paperback in the US in the late '60's, there are reports of graffiti to the effect "Gandalf for President". White Council, White House ... just semantics. 🤓

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Actually, in the LotR craze started by the publication of the Ballantine paperback in the US in the late '60's, there are reports of graffiti to the effect "Gandalf for President". White Council, White House ... just semantics. 🤓

 

[Radaghast]

Why was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings literally the reason why Lord of The Rings became what it is today (movies, fantasy, franchises, impact, history, tolkein, producers, directors, nerd culture, pop culture)?

My eyes are all rolled out 😵

 

[Olorgando]

Why was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings literally the reason why Lord of The Rings became what it is today (movies, fantasy, franchises, impact, history, tolkein, producers, directors, nerd culture, pop culture)?

My eyes are all rolled out 😵

Delete movies and what's associated with it, and LotR was all that before your parents were born. And the name is spelled Tolkien, you illiterate.

 

[Radaghast]

Is Aragorn, the Returned King in Lord of the Rings, supposed to be a caricature of Jesus?

Methinks someone needs to consult a dictionary, though even if the asker is asking whether Aragorn was inspired by Jesus, I can't imagine where they could have gotten that impression.

 

[JackTorrance]

Is Sauron supposed to be Tolkien's version of Satan?

 

[Radaghast]

Why didn't the dwarves take part in the defense of Gondor or the Battle of the Pelennor Fields?

Are you kidding me? This question again? 😖

 

[Olorgando]

Why didn't the dwarves take part in the defense of Gondor or the Battle of the Pelennor Fields?

Are you kidding me? This question again? 😖

1) Does the concept of "maps" ring a weak bell? (There's this magazine called "National Geographic" ...)
2) They were seriously busy defending their own places.

This is kind of like asking "why didn't the armed forces of the Netherlands occupy Berlin in 1940" ... 😖

 

[Radaghast]

I think some who (probably among those who have only seen the movies) think everything takes place over a 100 square miles.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

After all, a bunch of Elves from Lothlorien showed up at Helm's Deep!

Didn't they?

 

[Radaghast]

And someone got past enemy lines 😄

More rank idiocy regarding the imagined dichotomy between goblins and orcs. To my statement that the words are interchangeable, I got this gem of a reply:

That is actually a false statement that many fall for. Goblins were already traditionally weaker creatures IRL tales, a fact that Tolkien only later accounted for by saying that the “goblins” creatures he initially wrote about and planted in children’s heads should better have been called the scarier IRL trope of “orcs.” as the tales of those were fiercer. Remember that Hobbit was a bedtime story. LOTR was a larger mature tale. Tolkien here specifically acknowledges the error of the name and thus why the change was made. Goblins are not Orcs. Goblins BECAME orcs through the storytelling by omission and replacement.
Which means the LOTR PETER JACKSON Goblin King and his crew should have been something vastly different. (Where did the un-elves come from down there?)
And which meat was back on the menu again?

 

[Deimos]

After all, a bunch of Elves from Lothlorien showed up at Helm's Deep!

Didn't they?

Yep... and Haldir was none too thrilled to get a "bro hug" from Aragorn.

 

[Elthir]

To my statement that the words are interchangeable, I got this gem of a reply:

Hmm. I've never seen that one specifically. But hey, even Tom Shippey got this wrong once. And
how long has Ardalambion been on the web? In any case, as of today, it still doesn't include orc
in the Westron wordlist.

JRRT, The Hobbit, Third Edition: "Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (. . .) Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, . . ."

And the Hobbits spoke (their version of) Westron/Common Speech "at that time".

Elsewhere, JRRT outright says that the word orc is Common Speech, and that it should be translated (see below). The fact that he doesn't want it translated ("it should be retained") does not change the scenario however, and in my opinion, it underlines it -- in other words, Tolkien has other reasons he wants to keep the word orc in the text, despite that he also employs the English word "goblin" in The Lord of the Rings as well.

Orc "This is supposed to be the Common Speech name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated to English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be retained." JRRT, Nomenclature

This post isn't directed at you Radaghast, of course, I just haven't had a good orc versus goblin post in a while.



Aside: as I was reading through some of the threads (trying to find your specific discussion) I fell upon someone who had once held this view (no difference whatsoever) -- but by going through the History of Middle-earth draft texts, this person then concluded that there must be some difference.

And in HOME one will indeed find Tolkien's ever-changing mind (and admittedly, some simply confusing occurrences), but these need not obscure the answer that he (JRRT) ultimately landed
on, and that answer is found in later texts, including, as I say, the Third Edition Hobbit.

Oh well. I gives me something to post about!

🐾

 

[Radaghast]

The bozo chose to dig himself a deeper hole after I told him what the "Author's Note" says:

Your untrue statement …”It says plainly in The Hobbit that ‘goblin’ is the translation for ‘orc’.”..tells me you will resort to lying. A simple text search of the book including citations and publication info reveals the letter pattern roughly 60 times and all of those times is it only part of Orcrist or Torch as well. In none of them is the word “orc” itself ever used or translated. Tolkien never translated orc to mean goblin.

I know you think Orcrist meaning Goblin Slayer feels obvious except the Sindarin for goblin is Orch and Orc is a 16th century Latin word. That is a clear case of linguistic reversal where gibberish is ungainly conlanged into meaning. Even the Rist part reads weird as Ris is “cleave” but the dwarvish language adds hard-consonants at the end words , not elven which prefers vowel and soft-syllable ends.

This imbalance means that Orcrist is an unreliable indicator of language by itself. Since it is the only “orc”-indicator, this word is not evidence of connection by itself without corroborating evidence. Since you have resorted to lying, all your subsequent statements are suspect.

They were not the same. Tolkien did the tear away page two-step retcon to make that happen. The Hobbit's goblins are not the melded creatures of the Trilogy and lies don’t become you. I believe in you to be better.

 

[Elthir]

Someone else wrote (purple text):

"Your untrue statement …”It says plainly in The Hobbit that ‘goblin’ is the translation for ‘orc’.”..tells me you will resort to lying."

Or resort to citing JRR Tolkien

"A simple text search of the book including citations and publication info reveals the letter pattern roughly 60 times and all of those times is it only part of Orcrist or Torch as well. In none of them is the word “orc” itself ever used or translated. Tolkien never translated orc to mean goblin."

It was mostly translated to "goblin" in The Hobbit, just as Tolkien writes in Nomenclature: "It was translated "goblin" in The Hobbit, except in one place; . . ." The only error here is that Tolkien seemingly forgot one instance of orc that he had added to the second edition. Thus that should read, except in two places.

"I know you think Orcrist meaning Goblin Slayer feels obvious except the Sindarin for goblin is Orch and Orc is a 16th century Latin word."

Tolkien did borrow the word orc from Primary World languages, and he made it part of his invented language, Westron.

"That is a clear case of linguistic reversal where gibberish is ungainly conlanged into meaning. Even the Rist part reads weird as Ris is “cleave” but the dwarvish language adds hard-consonants at the end words , not elven which prefers vowel and soft-syllable ends."

See Etymologies (HOME V) where the Noldorin form is Orchrist. And yes, Sindarin words can end with -st, see also Angrist for example.

"This imbalance means that Orcrist is an unreliable indicator of language by itself. Since it is the only “orc”-indicator, this word is not evidence of connection by itself without corroborating evidence. Since you have resorted to lying, all your subsequent statements are suspect."

See above.

"They were not the same. Tolkien did the tear away page two-step retcon to make that happen. The Hobbit's goblins are not the melded creatures of the Trilogy and lies don’t become you. I believe in you to be better."

Tolkien did change his mind here, over the years -- that does not however, undo what he ultimately decided upon with respect to these words, and indeed published himself.

🐾

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Well, you tricked me into a reaction that time, Elthir.

Drat. If only you weren't so lovable! 😡