Should they have given 🧝Arwen the extra scene?

[Eonwe]

so how would these scenes change with Arwen in them instead of Legolas?

**ducks expecting old copies of LoTR to be thrown**

 

[PRH]

I just think the inter-character dynamics would change too much. There would be too much emphasis on Aragorn and Arwen as a couple. (If they tried to avoid that then their relationship wouldn't make a ton of sense.) There would be too much "Arwen and Aragorn" rather then "Aragorn as the leader."

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Harad
There's not much you can say. Arwen was an artistic invention of Peter Jackson, known as a composite character by those who are familiar with Film as a medium. The film Arwen was completely consistent with a character that might have come directly from LOTR with minor, if any, nit-picking differences.

I am not saying that the "film Arwen was completely consistent with a character that might have come directly from LoTR". Nothing Arwen's character did was out of LoTR spirit. The issue is whether it should have been ARWEN doing it! Arwen was not a composite character because she already had a character...Lurtz was a composite character because he never existed but was created to personify Saruman's orcs more realistically to the audience....And to be honest, Lurtz didn't bother me as much as I thought he would....To me, characters' lines combined or spoken by another character are not a big deal (i.e. Sam says something that was attributed to Frodo, or something like that). Arwen was far from a composite character. She was an existing character who was portrayed nothing like she should have been in the book. Would you have felt the same if Aragorn or Gandalf were "composed" of other characters' actions that were totally out of character for them?

Arwen was created a certain way by JRR Tolkien. He made her role specifically as Aragorn's betrothed....an almost ethereal force that drives Aragorn to his destiny: to earn the hand of the daughter of Elrond. Does that mean that she should only sit high and pretty and be given the few minutes that Tolkien did? NO! Obviously if PJ wanted the audience to get used to her he could have created more scenes to include her in....but scenes true to ARWEN's character, not Glorfindel, Elrond, Gandalf and Frodo's combined.

"minor, nit-picking differences"?? Please, Harad!! Maybe for the spirit of LoTR and only if they were done by a true composite fictional character. As for it being ARWEN the differences are mighty huge. I will agree on exactly what it was: an invention of Peter Jackson. Definitely not Tolkien.

 

[Harad]

Arwen was far from a composite character. She was an existing character who was portrayed nothing like she should have been in the book.

Thorin:
First let me commend you for actually engaging in a discussion rather than ignoring what I said and/or casting asperagus at me.

We disagree entirely on what "composite" character means. In the book Arwen is a completely behind the scenes character--does she have ANY lines? Therefore in my mind she is a tabula rasa. PJ takes her from behind the scenes and retains the important facts about her: she is Elrond's daughter and Aragorn's betrothed. He then adds to this many of the actions that the book's Glorfindel took: searched for Aragorn and the Hobbits, aided Frodo's escape from the Nazgul, and played a large role in unhorsing the Nazgul.

Can there be any doubt among others that this is a composite character? One may not like what PJ did in the composition but to deny that she is a composite character is too much.

 

[Grond]

Harad, I absolutely agree that PJ's Arwen is a composite character. My problem, as stated about six posts up and to which no one responded, was that a part of her composition not only included Glorfindel's role but also a significant insight into Frodo's personality. Had PJ simply substituted Arwen for Glorfindel, I would have had no problem with her. It also occurs to me that PJ also included some of Elrond's character in her as well. I had forgotten that it was she who called down the River. Maybe PJ could have saved us all a lot of trouble and just named it Queen of the Rings and had Arwen take all the characters.

Seriously, I would have been much happier had he not done that. Arwen = Glorfindel is acceptable. Arwen = Glorfindel + Elrond + Frodo is just a little more than the Grond would have preferred. I still have high hopes for the Director Cut DVD and the next two movies. I can tolerate an expanded Arwen role as long as it doesn't infringe on the dynamics of the Aragorn - Eowyn sub plot. If he starts changing big chunks of plot, I will be unhappy.

 

[Thorin]

I must disagree with you both then, Grond....Grond, say it ain't so! Arwen's travesty has made me even detest Liv Tyler (not that I liked her to begin with).

As far as I'm concerned, Grond, Arwen's distortion is a big chunk of the plot...By introducing Arwen the way she is, PJ has been left to continue to give her such roles...As I've said before, doing what PJ did and then leaving her on the sidelines defeats the purpose of what PJ intended: to give her more time then JRR did and keep her fresh in the mind of the audience...Unfortunately, the WAY she was introduced leaves the door open to give her more of the same role (As we see, she is now at Helm's Deep). How much farther is it going to go? She is already not Tolkien's Arwen.

It would not suprise me if she is involved in the going ons of Gondor and the battle of Pelennor fields...Do you think that after coming down and fighting in Helm's Deep that she is just going to say, "Well, dearest, I'm going back to Rivendell to sit pretty. See you at our wedding day."?? I highly doubt it...She's down there and as far as the movie time goes, I can't see much time passing between one incident and the other, so my guess is that she is in almost everything like white on rice. Why that thought seems to bother only me is incredible for a forum of TOLKIEN fans.

To me, that is changing a lot of the plot and character....Down with PJ and his cheesy, fabricated Arwen!

 

[PRH]

It would not suprise me if she is involved in the going ons of Gondor and the battle of Pelennor fields

small spoilers!:


Thorin,

Good news refuting this: There is rumor that Arwen will stay in Rohan to help the refugees while the others go on to Minas Tirith:

http://www.tolkienonline.com/movies/changes_ttt.cfm

 

[Thorin]

It's been a while since I looked at the changes. It seems that PJ will not be putting the filmed scenes of Xen-Arwen fighting at Helm's Deep in the movies.

That sure would be nice, but I don't know how true it all is....

 

[Eonwe]

Thorin! You don't like Liv Tyler? I'd like to suggest Viagra...

Ok that was below the belt. And a "waste of bandwidth". Sorry. HAHA!

 

[Grond]

Thorin, my opinion on Arwen's expanded role are posted throughout the forum. You know them and I know them. I will not make any judgement on a movie that is not yet through editing. When it comes out and I view it, at that time I will make a judgement on the degree of damage (if any) done to the character and the work. Those are my judgements and are not the property of anyone else on this forum.

 

[Eol]

Arwen

She is just another example of how PJ put in things that are inconsistent or just plain don't make sense.

First, I read someone say in another thread that her going off to find her hunky-poo was in keeping with her brave and fearless ancestor Luthien. That is ridiculous. Tell me where Luthien picked up a sword and starts hacking up orcs! Luthien was a elvish princess. She used her wits and magic for her ends. Why would Arwen be different? (Next thing you know, Galadriel her granny will be impaling trolls on spears!)

The "Glorfindel isn't important cause he didn't get in the fellowship" is also silly. The sons of Elrond didn't either and they are powerful elves. There are other powerful beings that didn't either. And they make the point in the book many times that there are other perils and other armies to fight. And "even if you send an Elf-Lord like Glorfindel, he cannot storm the dark tower or break the black gate by the power that is in him" (or something like that, going by memory).

And the main reason it is silly is because of all the people to send, why her? Think this through. Elrond will definately send SOMEONE. Or more likely, more than one. So the point comes to this. Do they know where to find Aragorn and company or not.

In the book they are wandering through the Ettenmoors. Elrond sends out MANY scouts to find them. The one who actually does is Glorfindel. Could have been someone else. Doesn't matter really, does it? But for the movie to work, she has to know where to find him, otherwise it becomes a silly coincidence that out of all the searchers it is HER that finds him. I guess you can add super-tracker to the warrior tag on her.

So either they knew where to find Aragorn and she went (but why alone when the 9 are after him) or they don't (in which case it becomes improbable it would be her).

Oh, want another quick, stupid inconsistency? After telling you that orcs aren't out during the day and have excellent night vision, and BEFORE we meet Sarumans new 24hr orcs: Aragorn stops them for that fateful rest stop "because the should cross they river at night to avoid being seen". Duh!

Eol - the Dark Elf

 

[PRH]

BEFORE we meet Sarumans new 24hr orcs

Gandalf was well aware of the Uruk-Hai. He informed Elrond in Rivendell of how they would travel during the day. I'm sure he mentioned it to Aragorn at some point along the way.

 

[Harad]

The "Glorfindel isn't important cause he didn't get in the fellowship" is also silly.

Glorfindel isnt important because he is a weak literary character. This is recognized by anybody that examines LOTR without an ultraconservative approach that "If JRRT wrote it, its perfection." LOTR is a great literary work but not perfect. Glorfindel is a 1st Age Elf in a 3rd Age story. After he has a cameo appearance at the Ford of Bruinen, he DISAPPEARS. Never heard from again in LOTR. Not like Elrond's sons who contribute to the Host of West (thanks, Vilya). JRRT wisely did not include Glorfindel in the rest of the story, not for any logical reason, but simply because Glorfindel did not fit. This was a job appropriate for Legolas. Glorfindel was inappropriate.

Tell me where Luthien picked up a sword and starts hacking up orcs! Luthien was a elvish princess.

And which movie was Arwen hacking orcs? Arwen is absolutely consistent with a JRRT character reminiscent of Luthien, more than, say Eowyn, another JRRT character. She is only a "warrior maiden" for those who do not pay attention to the movie. In the movie she is a healer and a glowing light in contrast to the darkness of the Nazgul. At the Ford of Bruinen she uses trickery to unhorse the Nazgul, in contrast with Glorfindel who uses power to drive the Nazgul into the river.

(in which case it becomes improbable it would be her).

Arwen finds Aragorn? Unbelievable. Perhaps in the magical world of LOTR, there is a bond between the two betrothed that draws them together....Naaaah. Magical Rings? Yes! A bond between Aragorn and Arwen? Ridiculous!

 

[Eol]

So he is weak because he is never heard from again? That's it? You know how many works have characters like that? He was a support character, that is all. He played a brief part. By your reasoning Ghan Buri Ghan was unnecessary, Hama is unnecessary, indeed half the council is unnecessary. Call it personal preference if you like, but I do not share your opinion.

True, she didn't hack up orcs (yet, but from what I hear she may just do that). But at the same time, no other similar JRR character is behaving like she is. I would like to hear who you think she is in line with. Certainly not Luthien. As for the "psychic bond" you speak of, Luthien needed Huan the hound to help her track Beren.

Further, I don't find her as a light contrast. Sorry, she just didn't seem like that. And in fact she almost in a sense belittled what the others went through (she seems to have dealt with the situation better than Aragorn). Also I wouldn't rank trickery up there as a great virtue. And by the way, Glorfindel did not combat it with power. He merely did the same that Aragorn himself did at Weathertop. He used fire against the riders, in this case to drive them to the river. And it was he, Aragorn and the hobbits that did that, not him alone. But hey, had Arwen been there they could have all relaxed and left it to her.

And as for the escape, the horse of Glorfindel provided the speed, and Frodo provided the defiance. But of course this Frodo seems to be a little weak in that department.

So no, I don't see a great improvement in PJ's treatment, and in fact think he blew it.

Eol - The Dark Elf

 

[Harad]

Eol:
Sorry you dont understand my point about Glorfindel. He is without question the best character to represent the Elves in the Fellowship. Yet, he is ignored. He is a High Elf who alone of all Elves came back from the Hall of Mandos to Middle Earth. He killed Gothmog the Balrog. For 2 Ages of ME he chased the Nazgul, from the Wars of the North to the Fords of Bruinen. Yet, when the War of the Ring breaks out he takes a vacation. Never heard from again until a one word mention in the Aragorn wedding procession. This is a character that is buried by JRRT. A character that SHOULD play a role, but doesnt.

What possible connection is there between Glorfindel and Ghan Buri Ghan, or for that matter, other MINOR characters? Glorfindel is not minor, he is weak, on simple logical grounds.

Also I wouldn't rank trickery up there as a great virtue

Call it what you want. Its what every character uses to win, that doesnt use brute force. This comment shows how bankrupt your argument is. Tell me what character this describes:

..she put forth her arts of enchantment, and caused her hair to grow to great length, and of it wove a dark robe that wrapped her beauty like a shadow, and it was laden with a spell of sleep. Of the strands that remained she twined a rope, and she let it down from her window; and as the end swayed above her guards that sat beneath the tree they fell into a deep slumber.

Trickery? Deception? Magic? Who could this unnamed character be? Any ideas? You deny that Arwen has literary antecedents in JRRT. Then you denigrate the very acts that point to that antecedent. Its plain irrational bashing of the movie, wrapped of course in specious arguments.

Why so often do nit-pickers not know the book that they nit-pick about?

 

[Eol]

First, I happen to know the book very well. And yes, Luthien was a fine seamstress. But there are differences in execution. There are subtleties. In one side you quote from the tale of Beren and Luthien and talk of enchantment and magic. On the other it is someone luring the enemy into a trap. Maybe you don't see the difference, but I sure do.

I brought up the others because they seemed to only appear in a certain spot and then are never heard from. That seems to be your point. Also, remember when the fellowship was being made, the last two spots were to be from Elronds people. Maybe Glorfindel might have gone. But Elrond allowed Merry and Pippen to go, trusting in friendship instead of power or great knowledge. Sorry, I still don't buy your arguments.

YOU say he SHOULD play a role. I don't agree. Hey, Galadriel could have joined them from Lorien. She was very powerful. But she stayed behind. Just because someone is powerful doesn't mean they have to be in the fellowship.

Oh, and try to stick to the point at hand and not get into this "you don't know the book" garbage. If it's flames you want maybe this should move elsewhere!

Eol - The Dark Elf

 

[Harad]

On the other it is someone luring the enemy into a trap. Maybe you don't see the difference, but I sure do.

No I dont see the difference. Trickery is deception is magic. Does Luthien "trick" Sauron? "Deceive" Morgoth? Is that something you deride? Or did Luthien use brute force? Which was it? Demonstrate that you know the book.

Maybe Glorfindel might have gone. But Elrond allowed Merry and Pippen to go, trusting in friendship instead of power or great knowledge.

Merry and Pippen are not the issue. Whose "friendship" did Legolas command? Legolas was the Elf representative on the Fellowship. Galadriel was the ruler of Lorien and not even at the CoE. I can't wait for the next non-sequitor.

How many entities of Glorfindels description were there in ME? What did Glorfindel do in the War of the Ring? We know what Galadriel, Elladan, Elrohir, Dain, Brand, Ghan Buri Ghan did. What did Glorfindel do?

Bash the movie all you want, but dont claim you are defending principles in the book that, in fact, dont exist.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Harad
Arwen is absolutely consistent with a JRRT character reminiscent of Luthien...... In the movie she is a healer and a glowing light in contrast to the darkness of the Nazgul. At the Ford of Bruinen she uses trickery to unhorse the Nazgul, in contrast with Glorfindel who uses power to drive the Nazgul into the river.

Arwen finds Aragorn? Unbelievable. Perhaps in the magical world of LOTR, there is a bond between the two betrothed that draws them together....Naaaah. Magical Rings? Yes! A bond between Aragorn and Arwen? Ridiculous!

What is unbelievable Harad, is that you somehow can find so many ways to explain and justify a complete fabrication and yet still somehow try to make it Tolkien.... All you have is speculation to base your pro-PJ justifications on....Trying to create some sort of psychic bond between Aragorn and Arwen to explain why she somehow found Aragorn and the hobbits is beyond reason and so far from Tolkien's LoTR that it is astounding.

PJ's Arwen and Tolkien's Arwen are two different characters...call it for what it is and stop trying to make so many ridiculous justifications for it.....It was a movie invention, it is not Tolkien's character, nor his intention for a character...It was a HUGE misinterpretation by PJ for cinematic purposes. CALL IT FOR WHAT IT IS and stop trying to link it to JRR by saying that it is in "the spirit of Tolkien" and "Luthien did it, why couldn't Arwen?" These arguments are totally irrelevant to the facts, never mind tedious and an insult to JRR characters and story.

 

[Harad]

A "fabrication" in a film based on a fictional story. What an insult?

And BTW what a "fantastic" NEW argument against Arwen: she could never have found Aragorn. Think of the consequences of this argument.

1. For the book, we now know that Glordindel was a tracker and wilderness Elf par excellence, since he found Aragorn. This is just the OPPOSITE of the arguments these same people make for why Glorfindel was unsuited for inclusion in the Fellowship.

2. Arwen, daughter of Elrond, is so inferior, perhaps being a woman, that she could not find Aragorn in the wilderness, or certainly with lower probability than Elronds sons or the wilderness-savvy Glorfindel. She cant fight, she cant use deception, and she cant find her way in the wilderness.

These "defenders" of JRRT want the character of Arwen to be an incompetent boob, only able to sit quietly at home, and after being summmoned, meekly be wed to Aragorn. Exactly who is doing injustice to a JRRT character? It isnt PJ.

 

[Eol]

You know, your arguments keep getting weirder and weirder. And you seem to enjoy misinterpreting or skewing what is said to defend your view. You know, Thorin is right.

"For the book, we now know that Glordindel was a tracker and wilderness Elf par excellence, since he found Aragorn..." Who said this? My point, if you read it, and read the book like you keep claiming I haven't, is that Elrond sent many people out looking for Aragorn and company. Glorfindel was the one who happened to find him first. It could just as easily been someone else. No, he wasn't being Mr. Supertracker. To track someone you have to find where they have been first and follow. Hard to do on that horse of his. So out of all the people that were searching, Glorfindel happened to be in the right place at the right time.

I am not doing injustice to Arwen. But the movie Arwen and the book version are as Thorin said, totally different. And I don't see the justification for the change beyond marketing and the box office appeal of Liv Tyler.

Oh, and I don't recall saying Galadriel was at the council. I said she could have tagged along after they left Lorien. Of course, you would know this if you actually read my post. Come to think of it, that darned Celeborn doesn't seem to do much of anything, they should write him out completely while they are at it.

Legolas did indeed go to represent the elves. But you know there are more elves than in the House of Elrond. He was a sindarian elf, who were of course the majority of elves in the 3rd age. And while to hear you speak he might just be any old elf, he was King Thranduil's son. So having him represent the elves is not a ridiculous decision. So to justify Glorfindel's existence in the book Elrond should have told Legolas to go home and put Glorfindel in instead???

And finally, "Demonstrate that you know the book"??? Sorry, I don't feel the need to demonstrate anything to you. You obviously have an overinflated sense of your importance.

Eol - The Dark Elf