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Significance of 7?

Faila posted:
Six isthe number of man, not the number of satan.
Could be, in some tradition.

I don't think I've actually encountered either tradition that I remember, but numbers can be associated with so many things in so many different texts and cultures.

I had thought that Goldmare, or a source she was using, was basing the association on 666, the number of the Beast in Revelations.
 
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Originally posted by jallan
Faila posted:Could be, in some tradition.

I don't think I've actually encountered either tradition that I remember, but numbers can be associated with so many things in so many different texts and cultures.

I had though that Goldmare, or a source she was using, was basing the association on 666, the number of the Beast in Revelations.
yes and the beats number is 666 is tomake in known that he is a man.
 
Perhaps you could explain why 6 is the number of man and not of Satan. Aren't all numbers of men? Does 6 have a special significance in mankind? Please explain, I am a bit confused by this statement.
 
After asking a question about nine being significant, i feel rather silly, as I never thought of the three, or the seven. I would like to add that seven is also called the immediate digit span in psychology,as most people can remember seven digits.
 
Goldmare posted:
Does 6 have a special significance in mankind? Please explain, I am a bit confused by this statement.
Well, in the creation account at the beginning of the book of Genesis, mankind was created on the 6th day.

But I don’t now recall anything I’ve read that makes something of this, associating the number 6 with humankind.

But of contradictory associations between planets, gems, elements, metals, plants, animals, etc. and numbers there is probably no end.
 
Originally posted by jallan
Goldmare posted:Well, in the creation account at the beginning of the book of Genesis, mankind was created on the 6th day.

But I don’t now recall anything I’ve read that makes something of this, associating the number 6 with humankind.

But of contradictory associations between planets, gems, elements, metals, plants, animals, etc. and numbers there is probably no end.
i think it means the man is less than God. It says in revelation that 6 is the number of man, and that 666 is the number of a man.
 
I think you are misremembering Faila.

Revelation 13:18 states something like:
This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.
The Greek here translated as “a man’s number” can be equally well interpreted as “the number of a man” meaning a number to be associated with a particular man.

Some English translations render it one way and some the other.

There is no mention of 6 by itself in Revelations connected to either “man” or “a man”.
 
Well tolkien was a strong catholic and seven is a luckey christian number. So maybe thats it.
 
yes some1 already pointed out the significance of 7 being the christian number because its one above 6 the satanic number.

thats what i was gonna say
 
Again, 3, 7, 9 and 12 (with 13 as an an unlikely number) are the most common numbers in European traditional tales and in Middle-eastern traditional tales, whether in Greek mythology, Jewish tradition, Christian traditional, Norse mythology, Celtic mythology, etc.

It is not surprising that in a work which imitates in part such traditional tales these numbers are also more prominant than 5, 8, 10, 11, 14, 15, etc.

There is nothing particularly Christian about there being seven races of Dwarves, for example, or seven palantírs (or seven gods who survive Ragnarǫk in Norse mythology ...).

The seven stars of the Dipper, seen by Durin as a crown in the Mirrormere, in a story never told fully or intelligibly by Tolkien, is more likely to have some relation to there being seven races of Dwarves.
 
Originally posted by jallan
There is nothing particularly Christian about there being seven races of Dwarves, for example, or seven palantírs (or seven gods who survive Ragnarǫk in Norse mythology ...).

no, there is not, i was saying tolkien was a catholic, and he incorporated his religion into some of his work.... which he has said himself.... some people say LOTR was based on christianity, but i dunno about that,... but he does use minor themes, nothing huge or noticable(sp) unless your looking for it.
 
Yes, but where does Tolkien use 7 or any number in a particularly Christian fashion in a way thet might be used in Christian symbolism?

Possibly there is a connection between the seven Valar (and seven Valier) and the seven archangels in Judeo-Christian legend and mythology.

But even in this Tolkien doesn’t come very close to general Christian legend.

One could, perhaps identify Manwë with St. Michael, but usually in Christian legend one finds St. Michael himself battling Satan, while in Tolkien’t legendarium it is Tulkas who does the actual fighting.

Who is Gabriel or Raphael in Tolkien’t legendarium?

Though a Christian himself, generally Tolkien avoids symbolism and equations in his legendarium that are specifically Christian, partly because of his distaste for allegory.
 
7 may not have been used in a christian fashion, but it certainly does recur an awful lot. I cut and pasted this list from another forum so I can not take credit for these.

Sevens

Gates of Gondolin
Rivers of Ossiriand
Walls of Minas Tirith
Tunnels of Minas Tirith
Gates of Minas Tirith
Dwarven Rings
Dwarven Hoardes
Dwarven Fathers
Durins
Valar
Valier
Palantiri
Sons of Feanor
Stars of the Valacirca
Possible Balrogs (?)
Beacon Hills of Gondor
Years of Siege of Barad-dur
Stars of Gondor
Times Fingolfin wounded Morgoth
Names of Gondolin
Swans sent to Tuor
High Kings of the Noldor
Periods of light of the Two trees
Stars of Durin
Times Sam was mayor
Dwarven Clans
Days of Gandalf fighting the Balrog
Ships of Elendil

-Lasgalen
 
Well I know that 9 is the number of power (for good or evil)
and 7 is a number for luck, and something else which I cannot remember this DOES NOT just apply to Tolkein,
 
Walls of Gondolin: historically, as described by Herodotus, Ecbatana, the modern Hamadan, the Persian capital, was surrounded by seven walls. This is quite possibly Tolkien’s inspiration.

The gates (of necessity) duplicate this number and should not count as a separate seven. But there are only six tunnels, not seven, as the lowest level of the city has no tunnel.

Of course the Thebes of Greek legend was also famous for its seven gates, though they were all in the outer wall.

The stars of Durin composing Durin’s crown and the Valacirca are the same thing, and the Valacirca has seven stars because in fact the Great Dipper in reality has seven stars.

Dwarvish Rings of course connect, finally, with Dwarvish clans, though admittedly created as a group of seven before the idea of giving them to Dwarves emerge. Dwarf hoardes and Dwarf fathers duplicate the clans and Rings and are not separate sevens.

The seven Durins may symbolically reflect the seven Dwarf clans also.

(I wonder if the story “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” was an unconscious influence on Tolkien&#8217s persistant use of seven for his Dwarves.)

The seven stars of the rhyme were on the seven banners of the ships bearing each one of the seven palantírs and so only duplicate the palantírs, are not a separate seven. But Elendil had gathered nine ships not seven, and when he and Isildur were separted in the storm, he had four and Isildur (with Anárion) three, so there are no seven ships altogether. It is unfair to count the seven ships each carrying a palantír as a separate seven from the palantirs themselves.

The seven stars of Gondor on Aragorn&#8217s standard are again the seven stars on the flags of Elendi”s ships.

The number of the Valar I have already covered as possibly showing purposeful Judeo-Christian influence.

Possible Balrogs: “There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed”. Not at all a definite seven.

Yet even subtracting the duplications and dropping the errors there are indeed still a lot of sevens in Tolkien.

But check Number Seven and 7 Seven 7 for many sevens in the real world, some specifically connected with Christian symbolism, but most not.

Especially pertinent is:
Ask a number of different people to give you any number between one and ten, and most will choose seven. Ask people to name their favourite number between one and ten, and again most will say seven.
This explains a lot.

Seven just is psychologically “magical&#8221, and is so in all cultures and traditions so far as I know.

Tolkien, writing what is intended to be heroic romance and mythology, naturally and possibly not always consciously reflects this.

And of course, any set can be counted, and sometimes the number by chance will be seven.
 
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maybe because there are nine planets... earth is the third planet from the sun, and the seventh planet away from the sun :D
 
Originally posted by jallan
And of course Tolkien died in 1973, the digits read backwards being the order in which they appear in the inscription on the One Ring.

An interesting observation jallan. That is one very strange coincidence (if we can call it that).
 
Wow... weird.

I once heard somewhere that the human memory can instantly recall a number up to seven digits... although this is probably because of the telephone...:D
 

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