So, what WERE Shelob/🕷️Ungoliant anyhow?

[Eriol]

Well, Sauron was once a Maia. What about Ungoliant? Did she ever serve any of the Valar? I don't think so. Therefore, it seems she is not a Maia, and never was a Maia, according to the quote offered by Manveru, that talks about "the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers."

Though perhaps it can be said that Sauron was not a Maia anymore, since he (as well as other bad guys) are listed under "The Enemies", and not under "Maiar", in the Valaquenta. I don't think that the sentence "Sauron is no longer a Maia" is flawed. Is there any instance in which he is called a Maia after he entered the service of Morgoth? I don't know.

Just as Melkor is no longer counted among the Valar, perhaps Sauron is no longer counted among the Maiar. What do you think?

 

[Manveru]

Just as Melkor is no longer counted among the Valar, perhaps Sauron is no longer counted among the Maiar. What do you think?

But He [Morgoth] is still a Vala-type, right?

 

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Manveru
But He [Morgoth] is still a Vala-type, right?

Hehe, YayGollum would like that .

Yep, he's a Vala-type -- I don't think you can erase that. And that, in a way, is my point about Ungoliant. I don't think she ever was either a Vala-type or a Maia-type. Not the first because their number is known; not the second because she never served or helped the Valar, she never belonged to their people.

I don't know if it makes sense, but I see no impediment to "non-Maia, non-Vala Ainur" hanging around -- or at least I can't remember any.

 

[Ithrynluin]

I think we're getting a little entangled in semantics here. Melkor to me was always a Vala, even though he might not have been called so later on. Likewise, Sauron would also remain a Maia (or 'a creature of the same group as the Maiar') for the rest of his life in my eyes. Ungoliant is probably an Ainu. And if we divide the Ainur, we see that there are greater and lesser among them. Most of the greater ones descended into Arda, and many lesser ones also. So Ungoliant stands a fair chance of being either a Maia-like creature or even a Vala-like creature. Why not?

 

[Eriol]

Yes, you're right, it's mainly a semantical issue. I'm taking "Maiar" to mean a title, something that can be revoked, just as "Valar". You're taking them to mean something inherent to the beings.

In your usage, I think you are right, Ungoliant is either Vala-like or Maia-like. In my usage she is an undefined Ainu. She is an Ainu in both usages.

Does anyone know what "Maiar" means? "Valar" we know, "Powers of the World" (what an economical language ), but what about "maiar"?

 

[Beleg]

The quote above states that some have said that in ages long ago...blah blah blah.

There is nothing definite about this statement. Well, that is to say, that the first part of the statement is unsure but then fact seems to gradually mix in with it. (It's pretty scabby I know to be pedantic about this but hey when you're down...)

I have provided not one but three statements. The writer of the works from which these passages are taken from are Penegolod and Rumil, and IMHO when they say 'some say' then It means that they are refering to the Elvish belief. And since in all the three cases Tolkien's take on Shelob's origin is more or less the same. Rumil wrote Annals of Aman, while Penegolod is said to be the writer of Quenta Silmarillion. Granted, Penegolod learnt a lot from Rumil and the Valinorian part of Quenta is probably an adaption of the work of Rumil, but their unanimity on this subject shows that this was the general popular elvish belief. And that's all we have got, we have got no implict, or even obscure statement that shows that Morgoth 'didn't' knew about Ungoliante.

***

Well, Sauron was once a Maia. What about Ungoliant? Did she ever serve any of the Valar? I don't think so.

Popular elvish belief was that she had once been a servant of Morgoth.

Posted by Eriol
Therefore, it seems she is not a Maia, and never was a Maia, according to the quote offered by Manveru, that talks about "the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers."

With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers.

In the Silmarillion of Morgoth's ring we have,

With the Valar were other spirits whose being alsO began before the world: these are the maiar, of the same order as the Great but of less might and majesty.

There no mention of Maiar only being the 'people of Valar'. And as far as I know it is not mentioned that this passage was altered in LQ2. Here all the Ainur other then Valar are taken as Maiar.
Although In Annals of Aman, the Maiar are called the people of the Valar.

In a Quote I posted before Ungoliante is said to have 'taken up shape' implying that she had a different shape before. Now I understand that Maiar could do so, and since we are only introduced to two classes of Ainur, Maiar and Valar, and Furthermore Ungoliante was also believed to be a servant of Morgoth in later days, I would say she is a Maia.



I have always thought of ''Maiar'' as the plural of Maia.

Chief among the Maiar of Valinor...

It is proved that is the plural of Maia.

 

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Beleg

I have always thought of ''Maiar'' as the plural of Maia.

Yes, but does it mean anything? We know "Valar" (or Vala) mean "The Powers of the World". Does "Maiar" (or Maia) have any other significance, or is it just a name?

I vaguely remembered Ungoliant as a servant of Morgoth in HoME, when he called him "Master", but I didn't know that this was established in the legendarium. I guess it is .

Then she was a Maia, according to that definition, "Maiar" = people of the Valar (which I admittedly don't know if it is accurate, that's why I asked about the meaning of the word Maia).

I still have a vague memory of other Ainur who do not belong either among the Valar or the Maiar, though... I have NO idea where this comes from, and I'll have to dig deep to check it. I remember an allusion to "other spirits" somewhere.

And I'm not talking about Bombadil . Is there any grounds for that? What do you say?

 

[Beleg]

Posted by EriolI vaguely remembered Ungoliant as a servant of Morgoth in HoME, when he called him "Master", but I didn't know that this was established in the legendarium. I guess it is .

I'll give it again,


Some further evidance from The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Darkening of Valinor, HOME X

Thus unseen he came at last to the region that once was called Avathar,*beneath the eastern feet of the Pelori; a narrow land it had become, eaten away by the Sea, and was long forsaken. There the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world. In Avathar, secret and unknown save to Melkor, dwelt Ungoliante, and she had taken spider's form, and was a weaver of dark webs. It is not known whence she came, though among the Eldar it was said that in ages long before she had descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the light in the kingdom of Manwe. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness.

Please dig deeper, If they are other then the watcher in the water and the Nameless things in Moria Abyss [Not that I am sure they are Maiar either] I would be happy to learn about them.
I remember a Quote of Gandalf in which he says something along the lines of 'there are many things more anicent then Sauron...'. If someone can look it up and post it, then It would be a great help; it might shed somelight on your Question.

 

[Bucky]

Does this mean that she died completely and utterly - If so she can't be one of the Ainur. Or just lost her body because she couldn't stand the hunger anymore?

I would guess it's the usual evil spiritual creature routine.....
They lose the ability to change shapes after a while, so body goes, spirit is houseless & powerless.

Didn't the balrogs mostly get 'slain' & destroyed?
So yes, I guess you can kill/destroy a Maia in certain circumstances.

Upon his physical death, Saruman's spirit goes 'poof' & 'up & disappears like a phart in the wind' as the warden says in 'The Shawshank Redemption'.

That scenario certainly implies complete, utter death with nothing left, flesh or spirit.

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If she was a Vala, then the Balrogs wouldn't have been able to hurt her
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Where do you get that? Both the Valar and the Maiar can be hurt when 'wearing' a physical form. Just look at Melkor for example - his feet were hewn from under him upon the breaking of Thangorodrim

Agreed that Maiar, or even High Elves can hurt EVIL Vala at least.

Fingolfin wounded Morgoth 7 times.

A Maia hewed Morgoth's feet from him after The War Of Wrath.

Morgoth had 'grown less by the power that had gone out of him' & couldn't oppose Ungoliant after she ate all the jewels of the Noldor.

Also, Morgoth 'no longer had the power' to assail the Maia that sailed the sun across the sky.


And, I agree, Morgoth is Melkor is a Vala, title revoked or not.
Same with Sauron & the balrogs being Maiar.

I remember an allusion to "other spirits" somewhere.

'Glaurung spoke by the fell spirit that was in him' to Turin.

So, that opens up a new can of worms (actually, an old can):
Are dragons Maiar?

Also, there was some sort of spirit in the werewolves of the First Age, correct?

And, there were 'noble spirits' in the eagles of Manwe, weren't there?

 

[Flammifer]

quote:
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If she was a Vala, then the Balrogs wouldn't have been able to hurt her
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Where do you get that? Both the Valar and the Maiar can be hurt when 'wearing' a physical form. Just look at Melkor for example - his feet were hewn from under him upon the breaking of Thangorodrim
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Agreed that Maiar, or even High Elves can hurt EVIL Vala at least.

Fingolfin wounded Morgoth 7 times.

A Maia hewed Morgoth's feet from him after The War Of Wrath.

Morgoth had 'grown less by the power that had gone out of him' & couldn't oppose Ungoliant after she ate all the jewels of the Noldor.

Also, Morgoth 'no longer had the power' to assail the Maia that sailed the sun across the sky.

OK, thankyou Bucky. No need to torment me longer.

Please dig deeper, If they are other then the watcher in the water and the Nameless things in Moria Abyss [Not that I am sure they are Maiar either] I would be happy to learn about them.
I remember a Quote of Gandalf in which he says something along the lines of 'there are many things more anicent then Sauron...'. If someone can look it up and post it, then It would be a great help; it might shed somelight on your Question.

Hah! What a turn of events! Now I'm helping you find a quote!

They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

--- Gandalf, TTT, "The White Rider"

This is from Gandalf's account of the Battle of the Peak. Is this the quote you mean Beleg?

 

[YayGollum]

meekly ---> Where does anything say that Ungoliant was never a servant of any Valar type thing? Mel was one of those at one time. oh well. Nevermind.

Anyways, about Ungoliant possibly killing herself ---> Is there something wrong with just believing that after she did that she was just some crazy floaty spirit like all of the Ainur types are naturally? She just got rid of her body so she wouldn't be hungry anymore. Good plan. Huh. I wonder if Ungoliant could possess someone?

Also, I like to think that she was more of a Valar type just because she was able to scare Mel before he started getting weak. Even if a whole gang of balrogs were able to scare her away, she still got to be bigger and scarier than him. But then, that was probably just because she got to suck up so much of other people's power. oh well. She seemed pretty unbeatable to the Valar types even before that with her crazy darkness thing.

 

[Beleg]

This is from Gandalf's account of the Battle of the Peak. Is this the quote you mean Beleg?

Precisely, thanks.

 

[Manveru]

Originally posted by Eriol:
Does anyone know what "Maiar" means? "Valar" we know, "Powers of the World" (what an economical language ), but what about "maiar"?

Let me see... hmm:

Maia pl. Maiar "the Beautiful" (MR:49), the lesser (= non-Vala) Ainur that entered Eä.

I think it's the answer to your question, Eriol

According to that "meaning" the Maia-option doesn't match with Ungoliant... at least in my understanding of the term "beautiful"

 

[Kelonus]

If Shelob wasn't always a spider, but she turned into one, poor woman. Imagine turning into a spider or something. Darkness is ugly!

 

[Beleg]

I rather prefer darkness.

 

[Bucky]

Also, I like to think that she was more of a Valar type just because she was able to scare Mel before he started getting weak

No, that's incorrect.
Did you read my post?

The quote I used is direct from The Sil when Ungoliant confronts Melkor to get the Silmarils.

'He had grown less by THE POWER THAT HAD GONE OUT OF HIM'.

 

[Manveru]

Originally posted by Bucky

Also, I like to think that she was more of a Valar type just because she was able to scare Mel before he started getting weak

No, that's incorrect.
Did you read my post?

The quote I used is direct from The Sil when Ungoliant confronts Melkor to get the Silmarils.

'He had grown less by THE POWER THAT HAD GONE OUT OF HIM'.

Yeah... and if my memory doesn't play tricks with me, Morgoth was the only Vala who knew fear (I think it's stated in The Silmarillion when he had to go out and accept the challenge of Fingolfin). So He can be scared... BOO!!!

 

[YayGollum]

Sure, I read everyone's posts. just because I read them doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to forget something. *gasp!* oh well. I still think that it makes more sense for the lady to be a Valar type thing. That level of Ainur type. Probably less powerful than some. Definitely more powerful than others.

 

[Bucky]

I'm not buying that Ungoliant had a Vala type power level.

The Valar are presented as being FAR beyond the other Ainur.
In fact, the 'Aratar, the high ones of Arda' are 9 Valar 'of cheif power & reverence', 'surpassing all, whether Maia or Vala'......


Ungoliant added power through consuming light & ONLY then, after Melkor had decreased in power, could she hope to confront him.

As she alledgedly served Melkor once, it's clear she's a more powerful Maia type in my estimation.
There just weren't alot of Vala types running around Arda unaccounted for.

 

[Ithrynluin]

There just weren't alot of Vala types running around Arda unaccounted for.

That's not exactly something that one of us could decide. If she had no special role in Arda, why would there be a need to mention her among the Valar?

The Valar are presented as being FAR beyond the other Ainur.
In fact, the 'Aratar, the high ones of Arda' are 9 Valar 'of cheif power & reverence', 'surpassing all, whether Maia or Vala'......

If Sauron was not classified as a Maia, I'd easily put him among the (lesser) Valar.

Despite all that, I'm still for the option of Ungoliant being a Maia, and Shelob a mortal offspring of hers (having some Maia blood of course, but still being mortal).