So, what WERE Shelob/🕷️Ungoliant anyhow?

[Eledhwen]

Silmarillion - Valaquenta "Of the Enemies": Yet so great was the power of [Melkor's] uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwe and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the EArth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

Flammifer quoted: "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Sauron was among the "others he corrupted afterwards", being first a Maia of Aule. So if Ungoliant fits into the 'nameless things' category then she was older than he, and herein lies a problem, because the Ainur sang the song through which Illuvatar created the world, and the Maiar are of the Ainur. It can be overcome by assuming that age, in terms of time, was invalid in the heavenlies, which were outside of time; so Sauron's age only began to be calculated when he entered Middle Earth.

This means that, if Gandalf was right, Ungoliant was already there before Sauron, so she was one of the first to be drawn to Melkor, ie: a Maia (though an ugly one). Shelob was her 'daughter' - a lesser spawn of spontaneous gestation, or product of a mating with some lesser arachnid maybe, but not a deity like her mother - she seems to lack the evil intelligence of Ungoliant, having only hate for every living thing and an appetite to consume all she hated. Corruption can only multiply in degenerate form, and Shelob was a degenerate form of her powerful mother, though still a force to be reckoned with.

Thingol and Melian's union produced children who were not Maiar but Elves (though of greater power). If Ungoliant mated with a natural arachnid, then I would call her offspring a spider, though a great one, and infused with her mother's evil and just enough sentience to use it.

 

[Flammifer]

I totally agree Eledhwen. Have you been posting in this thread before? We've had need of you! You seem to have summed-up well what a lot of people were trying to say.

Sauron's age only began to be calculated when he entered Middle Earth.

I agree with this, especially as the Ainur entered into Arda at various times. Therefore Ungoliant could well be older than Sauron, maybe she was even a 'came with the Arda package' thing. Kinda hard to say, but yeah she might be one of these nameless things.

It's also hard to say what Ungoliant bred with in Nan Dungortheb, as no specific creatures are mentioned. They're all just yucky. Certainly we can infer that Shelob's father (or whatever the mate was) was not as powerful as Ungoliant, as Shelob then would have been as powerful or more than Ungoliant, which she clearly was not.

 

[YayGollum]

I never said that Ungoliant was any more powerful than the nine people you're talking about, Bucky person. oh well. just that she was probably some Valar level type thing. Mel was pretty high up there, but I already mentioned that Ungoliant was pretty powerful even before sucking trees dry. About Ungoliant being some crazy little nameless thing, I doubt it. Mostly because I think of those as more like animals than anything else. I doubt that they'd be especially magical like Ungoliant was, too.

 

[Flammifer]

I figure you've gotta have some sort of power if you can gnaw at the bones of the earth and win!