SWORD that was BROKEN???

[Harad]

I know all about his errantry in Rohan and Gondor and it consistent with my point that he would not return to Gondor without the War of the Ring. That would have been his one and, perhaps only, contribution to one of the lands of his ancestors.

I am sorry you havent see all the threads that discuss these issues so I will try to acquaint you with the timeline. Aragorn was 87 years old before the Ring was identified. He had been betrothed to Arwen for 39 years. Since the average age that his 14 forefathers served as Chieftain of the North was 60 years, it is absurd to believe that Aragorn was planning at age 87 to return to Gondor to become King.

No, Aragorn would have stayed as Chieftain of the North. That was his duty and he was a noble man. He would not abandon his duty to wrest the Kingship of Gondor. He would continue as his ancestors did for 800 years. He would not disrput needlessly the 1000-yr stable government of Gondor. Either his love for Arwen would be unrequited or they would wed despite Elrond.

This all changed with the finding of the Ring and the War of the Ring. Even then, Aragorn would not wrest the Kingship of Gondor. He would win it by deeds. In the absence of the War, in the absence of those deeds, the noble Aragorn would never have become King of Gondor.

 

[greypilgrim]

Aragorn loved that Sword. He used the name "Anduril" as a war cry, he would not permit any man to touch it in Edoras. The sword was a token of his lineage, a license to the throne of Gondor, which he also treasured the thought of, ending his exile and winning Arwen.

Movie Aragorn doubted his strength, his lineage was "weak" in his mind, from Isildur. He never said he didn't want the kingship, he only doubted himself as worthy of it.

Book Aragorn never doubted his lineage, seemed proud of it, awaited the day when the Sword would be "re-forged".

The sword is a metaphor, I think, of the belief of men in the power of the line of Isildur to defeat the Dark Lord. That belief gives the SWORD a special power (of sorts) in the minds of those who believe (seemingly everybody).
Aragorn wielding the Sword, being the heir of Isildur, became more fierce than Strider with a blade. His kingship was in his hands, and the power of the Sword brought death to the hardest enemies.
Therefore,the Sword and the King are one, I think. And that is what my gripe was about. Aragorn is still Strider the Ranger when he left Rivendel (in the movie), not "Aragorn son of Arathorn going to war upon the marches of Mordor."

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Harad
No, Aragorn would have stayed as Chieftain of the North. That was his duty and he was a noble man. He would not abandon his duty to wrest the Kingship of Gondor. He would continue as his ancestors did for 800 years. He would not disrput needlessly the 1000-yr stable government of Gondor. Either his love for Arwen would be unrequited or they would wed despite Elrond.

This all changed with the finding of the Ring and the War of the Ring. Even then, Aragorn would not wrest the Kingship of Gondor. He would win it by deeds. In the absence of the War, in the absence of those deeds, the noble Aragorn would never have become King of Gondor.

I don't doubt that Aragorn had any burning desire at first to overtake the throne of Gondor. He had enough time to do that. The ring obviously rushed him along and opened doors that were previously closed, as well as made the need for the king more urgent....However, the movie makes him almost doubt himself and coupled along with Elrond's disdain for man and him giving the overall impression of feeling that Aragorn was unworthy of his daughter unless he took the throne really turns it all into some sort of soap opera type plot....i don't feel that Aragorn doubted himself in the least, or didn't know what he was after from the start. The movie potrayed the whole "kingship" thing poorly.

 

[Harad]

Another thing you missed in the movie:

When Aragorn tells Frodo "You have my sword," Elrond exchanges a glance of approval with Gandalf. Given the limitations of a 3 hour movie, PJ did an excellent job with the Kingship thread.

 

[PRH]

PJ gave Aragorn more of a character arc.

Tolkien's version of Aragorn's arc is that he started out as a ranger who wanted the kingship and then he worked and got it. All deeds.

PJ's version of Aragorn's arc is that he starts out as a ranger who isn't sure he can live up to his destiny. Through the encouragement of Arwen, the moving words of Boromir, and probably his compassion for the halflings he owns up to this responsibility and (presumably) will achieve it through deeds. This character arc is not all deeds but has some internal, emotional evolution.

There is a little of Frodo in the movie Aragorn, not sure of himself in the beginning. I kind of like it, sure it's not precisely Tolkien, but I like it. It makes sense that no matter how proud the decendents of the line of Isildur were, after so very many years they may begin to doubt their worth and abilities as kings. It might be hard to own up to your ancestry when the time comes. The important thing is that he does do it, and for the same reasons as the book - the love of Arwen, the glory of Gondor/Numenor and the compassion of the free peoples of Middle Earth.

 

[Snaga]

In the book (appendix A) Arwen forsees that Aragorn will become king, but he can't forsee it. He says something like her hope will have to be his hope. Elrond tells him he can't marry Arwen unless he reclaims the thrones of Arnor and Gondor, because he won't lose her for anything less than the renewal of mankind.

Aragorn has never rejected his heritage. All his recent ancestors have been Chieftains of the Dunedain of the North: they have not tried to reclaim the kingship, because the time is not right.

In the film, Gandalf says 'there is one who could claim the kingship' (as though he just has to knock on Denethor's door with a birth certificate and character reference!) and Elrond says 'He turned from that path long ago'. This is followed by an Aragorn Angst scene with Arwen trying to encourage the poor mite.

I agree with PRH - this is more of an arc. Excellent job? Yes. But not an exact replica of the book. This isn't a problem to me - the various elements do all work together. It does explain why Narsil stays at Rivendell in the film.

 

[Harad]

I agree with PRH and VoK, mostly. But I (of course) have a different interpretation of the "what if."

Aragorn in the book was willing to be King but needed a confluence of events to attempt that goal. Had the Ring not been found, and the Watchful Waiting continued, both in Gondor and in the North, then Aragorn would have been disappointed in that goal. Whether he would have married Arwen nevertheless is moot.

How much is preordained, how much is left to chance? When Elrond made his fiat to Arwen & Aragorn did he "know" that the War of the Ring was coming to a climax?

An interesting difference between the Aragorn's is the sound bite, "I am Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself." In the book Aragorn says this to Boromir indicating that he has not yet lived "up" to Isildur. In the movie Arwen says this to Aragorn, indicating that he need not fear living "down" to Isildur.

Different and fascinating sides of the same coin, because when you think of it, Isildur was both to be admired and to be criticized.

 

[greypilgrim]

Aragorn had a tough life, Arwen was a hottie, Elrond was c***-blocking, Boromir was a player-hater. The Drama never ends.

Seriously though, the sword Narsil is important, I think, because of the belief in many of it's power to defeat the Dark lord, then and now. Elsewise, it's just a "broken heirloom", right?

 

[Ged]

Thorin,
With respect, I think your criticisms of the movie are beginning to cause you to misquote the book you profess to love.

You said:

I don't doubt that Aragorn had any burning desire at first to overtake the throne of Gondor. He had enough time to do that. The ring obviously rushed him along and opened doors that were previously closed, as well as made the need for the king more urgent....However, the movie makes him almost doubt himself and coupled along with Elrond's disdain for man and him giving the overall impression of feeling that Aragorn was unworthy of his daughter unless he took the throne really turns it all into some sort of soap opera type plot....i don't feel that Aragorn doubted himself in the least, or didn't know what he was after from the start. The movie potrayed the whole "kingship" thing poorly.

Elrond in the book is explicitly stated as saying that Aragorn can only marry Arwen if he becomes the rightful King of a re-united kingdom of Gondor and Arnor. I don't know where you get the phrase "overall impression".

I believe Harad to be perfectly correct. If the ring had not been discovered Aragorn would have continued as a Ranger of the north - he would NOT have tried to claim the throne of Gondor. He didn't as Thorongil. He didn't even tell Denethor and his Father who he really was. (Don't forget this was just before he met Arwen.) Are you really suggesting that he was so weak that he would have changed his mind, and deviated from all the traditions of his immediate ancestors JUST to marry Arwen? He was nobler than that.

 

[Rangerdave]

Reforged?

Lets face it.
The whole arc is so Mr Jackson can put the "hottie" she-elf in the second movie. Cardinal rule of Hollywood, must have two hot chicks in every action movie. So, while I personally abhor what he has done to this part of the story, I can at least understnd it.

BTW who is playing the Lady of Rohan?

Smile
RD

 

[rabbit pitas]

Originally posted by greypilgrim
Anyone notice Aragorn's sword after they all left Rivendell?
It doesn't look like...it is not Narsil, the sword that was re-forged.
Why? It should have been re-forged again in Rivendell. Why has Peter Jackson CHANGED the story like that? And in all the other ways he has altered it? He has changed this story too much, it is not the original.
At first, I was pumped about the movie.
After 4 times seeing it, I think is is a joke.
Not very funny, though.

This is what I am talking about. This is just plain b*tching. The sword does not influence Frodo and the Fellowship's quest to bring the ring to Orodruin. Infact it doesn't matter much anyway. It's a minor detail to the story, or atleast to the first book.

Oh, and after seeing any movie for four times in a short period of time it becomes a joke.

Just apprectiate PJ's version and be thankful it wasn't some money grubber who squashed it all into one movie. God forbid someone leaves Narsil out, what would you do is someone left out all of Moria or Lothlorien?

 

[Thorin]

Oh my,

rabbit pitas, you're going to make Harad quite happy....You might even beat him....You're not even attacking the purists, but most of the Film Adaptation Defenders (other thread)....

That is very funny.

 

[PRH]

They are all minor details when you just think the story is about Frodo's quest. LOTR would not be anywhere near the great work it is without the other threads, most especially Aragorn's acension to the throne. The reforged sword is a very important symbol in this thread. I'm not complaining about it's exclusion. I'm content that Aragorn will get the sword later. This fits with his pushed-back plans to become king (as compared to the book).

On a related note, here's a picture of the prop replica which will be for sale soon. It's interesting that it's being called Narsil in the ad and not Anduril. I wonder if the name Anduril has been scrapped for the movie.

(click on the Arms of Valor sponsor link at the top of every page for the ad)

 

[aragil]

I still say that the best symbolic effect for the sword is at Aragorn and Arwen's wedding, replacing the sceptre of Annuminas. Sword reforged, realm re-kinged, Blood of Numenor renewed. What does the sceptre mean to anybody, anyway? Oh well, I guess there's a certain symmetry in the sword being used in the war which overthrows Sauron:
Last Alliance- Sword broken, Isildur fails to overthrow Sauron.
War of the Rings- Sword reforged, Isildur's heir helps to insure that Sauron is forever overthrown.

 

[PRH]

I agree that the scecptre is a minor symbol in movie terms. Replacing it with the sword would be okay except that I hate the idea of taking the weapon out of the sword. Aragorn's gotta use it in battle. It would be cool if they show his fighting abilities improve dramatically when he first takes up Anduril/Narsil.

 

[rabbit pitas]

Originally posted by Thorin
Oh my,

rabbit pitas, you're going to make Harad quite happy....You might even beat him....You're not even attacking the purists, but most of the Film Adaptation Defenders (other thread)....

That is very funny.

Actually, that was directed at the purist psychos. I agree with PRH that other plot threads influence the importance of LOTR, but I think it would be hard to include all of these without baffling those seeing the film who have not read the books.

There are people who haven't read them, you know.

 

[Harad]

Welcome RP,

Its always good to have another clear-thinker on the forum.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Harad
Welcome RP,

Its always good to have another clear-thinker on the forum.

Yes, Harad, it is good to have clear-thinkers on this forum....It's also nice to have folks like rabbit and yourself as well....

 

[Ged]

 

[rabbit pitas]

Originally posted by Harad
Welcome RP,

Its always good to have another clear-thinker on the forum.

Thanks, Harad!