the aspects of religion in LOTR

[Forgotten Path]

I haven't made an apperiance on the forum in a while, but some of you may know me.(YayGollum, perhaps, may remember me.)

I decided to make another apperiance because one of my friends is doing a report on religion in LOTR. I was wondering if some opions, facts, or other interesting stuff could be posted for her to use.

Thanks.

 

[Zale]

I can only remember one mention of a shrine/church sort of thing in ME: the shrine in Numenor. I cannot think of any other mention of worship. I certainly do not think that there was the same level of organised religion that is present in our world. Nor were there several religions with different fundamentals, as we have. There was no dispute in who or what the god(s) actually were; just their ordering (sort of). Morgoth's followers (by his teaching) placed him above Eru; everyone else recognised the Gods in their 'proper' order, which they themselves (apart from Morgoth) did not disagree with.
After having typed all that, I've just realised the main difference. In ME there was direct, indisputable evidence of the existence of the Valar. The Eldar who crossed the Sea had met, seen and spoken with them. In our world there is no such contact with God, and hence nothing except our own existence to prove his.

 

[Forgotten Path]

Maybe by having the Valar be undeniable gods, Tolkien was trying to make it much more evident that our religion relies on faith, what do you think?

And also, even though there was more than one 'god', unlike Tolkien's faith (and most others) the word Valar is more accurately translated 'angel', and Eru was the one single 'god'.

Now that I think of it, no one in ME has acutually seen Eru Illuvatar, but he is still worshiped (the shrine on Numenor).

 

[Niniel]

And of course Faramir looking to the West before dinner (at Henneth Annûn), to honour the Valar. But there really isn't that much on religion, maybe because Tolkien didn't want people to see all sorts of allegories to our world in LOTR?

 

[Goro Shimura]

He left out religion because it would be too easy to get into potentially heretical territory if he was specific about religious practices during the age between the Fall and before Moses gave the Law and Christ died on the Cross.

Also, Tolkien believed that sort of stuff would ruin Fairy Stories. (See his essay on the subject.) Tolkien believed that Fairy Stories with happy endings reflect the REAL happy ending that we have in Christ.


Though LotR is nearly devoid of the religion... it is nevertheless underpinned with a variety of Theological Assertions. Bjarki outlined them concisely. (Thanks for digging this up, aragil!)

1. The fundamental nature of the world and the intentions of its creator (God, “the One”, Eru) are good. Good actions are in harmony with the nature of the world and will tend towards being successful (though not necessarily achieving a precisely envisaged outcome), whereas evil actions are discordant with the nature of the world, tend to go awry and may even achieve unintended “good” outcomes.

2. Nothing is evil in the beginning (“even Sauron was not so”). Tolkien is no dualist. Therefore everyone is potentially redeemable. But since God is the only adequate judge of such matters, pity and mercy are a necessary duty for the rest of us.

3. Since we have free will, it is necessary to make choices. The evil of the Ring lies in the fact that it limits free will and removes choice. With the Ring Sauron can dominate the wills of others - that is the power of the Ring. The Ringwraiths have no will of their own, they are the slaves of the Ring. Gollum’s will has been almost entirely sapped by the Ring and Frodo’s will be. The ultimate evil of the orcs lies not in the fact that they themselves are evil, but in the way that they have been so fundamentally warped by Morgoth/Sauron/Saruman that they no longer have the power to choose to be good.

 

[Zale]

Surely the existence of angels would prove the existence of God?
Religion may well take a backseat in ME, but faith seems to be fairly important to me. No idea about the rest.

 

[Eledhwen]

Tolkien himself has a lot to say about it in "The Letters of JRR Tolkien" edited by Humphrey Carpenter.

Also, a newly published book "Tolkien In Perspective" by Greg Wright of Hollywood Jesus www.hollywoodjesus.com deals very thoroughly with all aspects of Tolkien and Religion. The website itself, in the LOTR feature section, has several essays on the subject by Greg, with comparisons between Tolkien and Peter Jackson. I recommend these essays, which have appeared roughly monthly since the first film was released.

 

[Forgotten Path]

All very good points. Thanks to every one for thier input.

Does anyone believe that LOTR may be influenced by Tolkien's faith, subconciously?

 

[Goro Shimura]

The debate over Tolkien's Letters and Work seems to be weighing in from two angles:

Either

a) Tolkien very conciously constructed the theological underpinnings of his work. This view assumes that Tolkien's views are so fundamental to his thought and life that he could not consciously create a myth or history that were not grounded in his beliefs.

or

b) An alternate view suggests that he first created a fun set of stories and languages with no thought of the theological implications in his work. Later in his life, he is said to have gone back over everything and reconciled it with his faith once he realized that lots of other people would be privy to his personal hobby.

I don't think anyone seriously argues that it was all unconscious. The argument is over at what point and in what way and with what intentions did he address the theological implications of his work. Also there is contention over to what degree his work is influenced by Christianity vs Pagan religions.

Nevertheless, Middle Earth from the beginning was conceived of as having a Creator.

 

[Forgotten Path]

I know that Tolkien hated allegories, so I believe that he didn't put in Catholic ideals into LOTR on purpose.
I believe its possible, though, that some slipped through the cracks. Tolkien was a very devout man from what I've read. It would be difficult to write a book as long as LOTR and not slip in things that you have believed in since you were a child.
I'm going to search the Silmarrilion for passages that might give us some ideas.

 

[Eledhwen]

Tolkien himself said:

Letters: 142 The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anyting like 'religion', to cults or pratices, in the imaginary world, For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.

Letters: 165 It is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorical intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political. The only criticism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion'. It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. ... It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Silmarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world.

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Forggoten Path
I know that Tolkien hated allegories, so I believe that he didn't put in Catholic ideals into LOTR on purpose.

You are - of course - right. Tolkien was rather careful to avoid anything explicitly Catholic - or even Christian - in his epos, he considered it fatal if a mythic tale - like his LotR - would have contained anything Christian, he wrote:

Also – and here I hope I shall not sound absurd – I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands. There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.
For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my essay, which you read.)

Letters #131 (my emphasis)

But on the other hand, what else should he write to the the close friend of the Tolkien family, Robert Murray, who - under Tolkiens influence - became a jesuit priest, than that it was fundamentally religious and catholic? That it was a heathen epos taking place in a pagan world?

Though - to me - it sounds somewhat strange why he would not put in, or ... cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world., if it was indeed so fundamentally religious and catholic...

 

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by Walter
Though - to me - it sounds somewhat strange why he would not put in, or ... cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world., if it was indeed so fundamentally religious and catholic...

Here is a quote from Greg Wright's book "Tolkien in Perspective":

...one who does not know Christ will not find Him in The Lord of the Rings without some external help. Of course there's no reason to levy such expectations on The Lord of the Rings, or any other fiction. We are aware that it's not the gospel, and it doesn't ned to be, allegorically or otherwise. But our expectations are not the issue: Tolkien's expectations are. And one of his own expectations was that his story should point to the evangelium. Tolkien was not at all content with the merely happy ending: his goal was a glimpse of the genuine joy of the one true mythic eucatastrophe, that of the resurrection. The evidence suggests that he was disappointed to find that The Lord of the Rings had not succeeded to the extent he had wished. Many readers catch a glimpse, yes; but they are as often likely to interpret this glimpse as a look into the glory of England's pagan past.

Tolkien wanted to sneak his Christianity into people's hearts through the 'back door' of Myth. Wright goes on to pose the question, if the dialogue of Finrod and Andreth (Tolkien's last written work) were published as an Appendix to The Lord of the Rings; what effect would that have on the reader? The dialogue deals with Christian values, but again, it is still in a pre-Christian setting (but I suppose that's for a different thread, hm?)

 

[Walter]

Your quote pretty much reminds me of some statements Joseph Pearce makes in his Tolkien - Man and Myth.

However, I do not agree that Tolkien wanted to sneak his Christianity into people's hearts through the 'back door' of Myth, I think by the time he wrote LotR, he was pretty well aware that Christianity - as well as any other monotheistic religion - was out of place in such mythic tales like Beowulf, the Eddas or his own mythical epi. I think he explained that pretty well in his essay Beowulf - The Monsters and the Critics.

Rather, I think, his Christianity can be gathered from his works - by the attentive reader (or when pointed out by authors like Pearce and Wright) - even though he purposely avoided putting it into them, but almost everything that can be considered as "Christian" values, is not exclusively Christian.

As for the Athrabeth... you mention, I wouldn't consider anything there as explicitly Christian - but of course it is also applicable to Christianity. There's a good thread somewhere, I think its called "Tolkien's struggle - Myth and Faith" or so...

 

[Eledhwen]

I see what you mean. Tolkien considered the Christian element in 'historical' English myth was fatal to its effectiveness as myth. He wanted his work to stir hearts. He wanted them not to willingly suspend disbelief, but to have them so immersed in the myth that belief in that myth came naturally. In the skeptical and cynical 20th century, that was a new experience for many, and opened a portal, a hunger if you like, for more. But Tolkien deliberately purged LotR of all religion so, as you say Walter, there are many elements in his work that marry well with several religions (I know it is particularly popular with 'new agers'). Wright mentions Tolkien's disappointment at the evangelistic effect of his work, but I think that was more because Christianity is generally misrepresented by its adherents and by others (ie more as a lifestyle than a relationship), and relationships are key in the Tolkien mythology.