The children of 🧝Elrond

Ricardo said:

As per LOTR. I don't interpret that as to go with Elrond in the same ship, but whether to remain permanently in Middle Earth or eventually leave for the west.

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No problem of course; and you're certainly not alone in that interpretation.

For the thread in general, I'll post what I think it the relevant exchange from A&A -- so far, only partially quoted in my footnote above -- I'm not saying that just reading it is a slam dunk for my position, but for easier reference here.

And with respect to your commentary about Tolkien's changing mind and canon, if I have time, I might respond to it over in the fairly recent thread on canon.

"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.

"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses."

"I see." said Aragorn. "that I have turned my eyes to a treasure no less dear than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desired. Such is my fate." Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you, or with Middle-earth."

"Truly," said Elrond. "Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass."

and as I say, it's not until the Second Edition that we find out Elladan and Elrohir "long remained" in Middle-earth after Elrond sailed

So did Tolkien, in the revised edition of The Lord of the Rings published in the 1960s, finally reveal the fate of the sons of Elrond? You (anyone) decide!

Elthir said:

and as I say, it's not until the Second Edition that we find out Elladan and Elrohir "long remained" in Middle-earth after Elrond sailed

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It's curious that Arwen didn't try Rivendell when Lothlórien was found empty.

ZehnWaters said:

It's curious that Arwen didn't try Rivendell when Lothlórien was found empty.

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I can only guess but Rivendell was deserted and probably decaying, and was much further away than Lorien. I think Arwen at that point just wanted the time to pass and wasn't willing to travel that far to an empty place.

ZehnWaters said:

It's curious that Arwen didn't try Rivendell when Lothlórien was found empty.

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Ricardo said:

I can only guess but Rivendell was deserted and probably decaying, and was much further away than Lorien. I think Arwen at that point just wanted the time to pass and wasn't willing to travel that far to an empty place.

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Mom and dad stood on the mound of Cerin Amroth where they plighted their troth (to make a solemn pledge to marry each other), so that was where she went to 'lay down her life' a year after dad laid his life down. Cerin Amroth had meaning to her, though only by then a fading memory of its former self.

Indeedy, Cerin Amroth must have had great meaning for A&A (the two people), and from A&A (the account) there's also this (as Ricardo referenced):

"Lady Undómiel," said Aragorn, "the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk."

JAA Tolkian Appendix A, A&A

Ent said:

Even the published work of the Balrog and its wings - the only part many MAY want to take as Canon - has a very clear and real syntax leading us to a concrete solution.
Tolkien says "shadow spread "like wings" wall to wall..." he doesn't say "wings spread like shadow wall to wall." Thus, there were no wings..! the wings were an imaginary "simile" he tossed in to draw the picture.
And there is NO place Tolkien writes they had literal wings. Yet the argument rages on still.

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Time for a reread of the Balrog wings thread! 😃

Not to mention the original text. 😉

I don't pretend to be a grammarian < and I'm not even sure that's a real word, but so far, I see no evidence that the Children of Elrond ever claimed the Moria Balrog fought at the Dagor Dagorath.

And I'd say there are plenty of facts within Tolkien's world: for example, take the famous first sentence of A Long-expected Party: is anyone going to argue that there's no one named Bilbo Baggins of Bag End, or that he didn't announce that he'd be celebrating his birthday, or that when he announced the celebration, there was no talk and no excitement (about it) in Hobbiton?

Or is anyone going to argue that maybe Bilbo invited the Moria Balrog to this birthday for "reasons", or that the Balrog sent its regrets 'cause it was too long *a walk* to Hobbiton?

snicker
I couldn't help myself

I agree with Elthir here.

Ricardo said:

The main issue is that this is a fantasy world, no way to check with facts

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Which is why it's best to not overthink it all and just enjoy it.