The 🧌goblins in the ⛰️mountains

[Prince of Cats]

Hey TTF,

I was wondering ... who were the goblins in the mountains that captured the company on their stoop? Were they like a town or a tribe or were they on a mission from Sauron? It seems Gollum was there for some time and they were always there during that time. And the trolls also for that matter. Were these just like wild tribes or beasts like a big pack of wolves (hey, add the wargs to that list) or were they under orders from 'the necromancer?' And if they were under orders, what do you think or what do the books say their purpose was?

Thanks!
Prince

 

[Bucky]

From The Tale of Years:

circa TA 1300 Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains & begin to attack the Dwarves.

circa TA 2480 Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.

TA 2509 Celebrian, journeying to Lorien, is waylaid in the Redhorn Pass and receives a poisioned wound (from Orcs - Fellowship Of the Ring, Many Meetings: 'Elladan & Ellrohir.... forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs.').

TA 2740 Orcs renew their invasions of Eriador.

TA 2790 Thror slain by an orc in Moria.

TA 2793 War of the Dwarves & orcs begins. Appendix A, Durin's Folk: 'When all was ready, they (the Dwarves) assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could from Gundabad to Gladden.'

TA 2799 Battle of nauduhirion before the East-gate of Moria. Again, durin's Folk: 'He (Azog the Goblin) saw that all his host in the valley was in a rout, and the Dwarveswent this way and that slaying as they would, and those (goblins) that could escape from them (the Dwarves) were flying South, shrieking as they ran.'

TA 2800-64 Orcs from the North trouble Rohan. From Appendix A (The Kings of the Mark) Brytta: In his time there was war with Orcs, that driven from the North (obviously, the Misty Mountaians) sought refuge in the White Mountains.

The Hobbit: (TA 2941) 'Both he (Gandalf) & Elrond had been well aware of the presence of evil goblins in that part of the mountains. But their main gate used to come out of a different pass, one more easy to travel by, so that they often caught people benighted near their gates. Evidently people had given up going that way, and the goblins must have opened their new entrance at the top of the pass the Dwarves had taken, quite recently, because it had been found quite safe up to now.'


Ok, so we see that the Goblins were always there in a small remnent, probably those that originally fled or survived The War of Wrath at the end of the First Age. The Misty Mountains was a likely spot to come down from the North into, just as the Balrog had.

When Sauron arises, they began to multiply again......

Are they under direct orders from him?

It appears when Sauron returns from fleeing into the East at the end of the Watchful Peace (2480), he steps up his strategy in the Misty Mountains, including Moria, barring all passes, leading to capturing Elrond's wife.

After the War of the Dwarves & Orcs wipes out a good amount of the Goblins, they regrouped & reproduced until the Battle of Five Armies, repopulating their strongholds.
They again did this after the Battle until the War of the Ring & "only the Beornings keep open the passes" Gloin tells Frodo.

So, yes, we can say that blocking the passes was a general order from Sauron, but not specific to the Dwarves Company.


As far as the trolls, William says "You've et a villiage and a half since you came down from the mountains" and all they do is argue over food, so I would say food is the reason for their movements.......

Plus, let's remember trolls are dull-witted, so giving them a plan wouldn't be a great idea.

Thirdly, Sauron did not have many agents in Eriador & how would he even be aware of what Thorin & Company were doing?

 

[Prince of Cats]

Thirdly, Sauron did not have many agents in Eriador & how would he even be aware of what Thorin & Company were doing?

Dear Bucky,

Thanks for all the great information. As for what I've quoted above, I never thought that Sauron was aware of Thorin & Company. Do you think he was aware, though, after the great goblin was killed? And all the many black birds going to Eriador, some could have let Sauron know you would think. I wonder if the goblins would have kept all the gold to themselves if they won the battle or if it would be Sauron's.

How though did Thrain II keep the map and key secret from Sauron? Did Sauron know of the key and map, and was he later aware that someone (even aware it was Gandalf?) had taken them from his stronghold?

While thinking about that subject, I wonder what Sauron knew of Gandalf's identity through to the end.

As for the Trolls, I too always saw it somewhat like Chrysophalax, though of course much dumber but equally hungry. I unfortunately can't afford the HoMEs and others right now so I call on the great lore of the community

Thanks again for the help Bucky and feel free to post any thoughts, ideas or info

 

[Sulimo]

Do you think he was aware, though, after the great goblin was killed?

I don't think he would have been aware. Because shortly thereafter the council of white was giving him no end of trouble, and he had other matters to deal with.

I do find it interesting that Thrain surrendered the ring, but not the key and map. I believe this is why the dwarves did not become like the nazgul. They had something in their person that could withstand the dominant binding of the ring, unlike man. However, that strength is not necessarily positive because it could be from greed or some other source, vengence. I need to think about that more, and maybe I will start a thread on it when my thoughts are more concise. Excellent questions Prince, keep em coming.

 

[Bard the Bowman]

Sulimo you hit the nail on the head. Dwarves are naturally resistant to the dominion of others, whether they be elves, men, or Maiar; also corruption.

As for Thrain keeping the map and key secret, do you think once Sauron had obtained the ring he considered Thrain of little further use and was probably well satisfied? That's my theory, unless someone has other evidence.

 

[Sulimo]

s for Thrain keeping the map and key secret, do you think once Sauron had obtained the ring he considered Thrain of little further use and was probably well satisfied? That's my theory, unless someone has other evidence.

Bard, that is exactly what I was thinking. I just didn't elaborate on it because I had an epiphany concerning dwarves in their natural resistance.

 

[Bucky]

Dear Bucky,


While thinking about that subject, I wonder what Sauron knew of Gandalf's identity through to the end.

From 'The Black Gate Opens':

"So!' said the Messenger (The Mouth of Sauron) "Then thou art the spokesman, old greybeard? Have we not heard of the at whiles, and of thy wanderings, ever hatching plots at a safe distance? But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the feet of Sauron the Great..."

Also, one must assume Saruman revealed plenty, especially after Gandalf's visit to Orthanc in the summer of T.A. 3017, through the palantir.

 

[Troll]

I imagine Sauron's attitude towards the map and key could best be summed up as "cool story bro." With the invincible, evil, entirely competent dragon Smaug occupying the Lonely Mountain, why would Sauron have any reason to worry about some lousy passageway?

After all, Sauron's big concern has always been the rings; he cares about dominating wills more than uncovering every trivial secret of his enemies. When their minds break under the gaze of his Eye he will learn everything anyway, so why rush?

 

[Sulimo]

Good call Troll. I never thought about it as such, but you are probably right. Pride was the greatest weakness of Sauron. He was constantly short sighted, and feeling secure in his position underestimated his foes. However, this oversight was the first step to his ultimate downfall.