The Grey Havens

I don't know if I'm missing the point here, (hey, it happens ) but here's some 'stuffs' of possible interest anyway:

The published Silmarillion

" ... and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows wither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea."

"But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers."

From the authors commentary on Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

7)
"Since Men die, without accident, and whether they will to do so or not, their fëar must have a different relation to Time. The Elves believed, though they had no certain information, that the fëar of Men, if disembodied, left Time (sooner or later), and never returned. (Authors note *4 ...)" JRRT

*note 4
"Sooner or later. Because the Elves believed that the fëar of dead Men also went to Mandos (...). There they waited until they were surrendered to Eru. The truth of this is not asserted ..." JRRT

Letters

"The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world ... (my edit) ... mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden'." JRRT

"Neither had they of course any special information concerning what 'death' portended for Men. They believed that it meant 'liberation from the circles of the World', and was in that respect to them enviable." JRRT

Sorry that some of that is plucked from context, edited for brevity and vaguely whatnot, but I type one-fingered

Alas, Cian has done my research and proved my point all at once without Grond having to open a book. Thanks to you O Learned Cian and to you Brent, my boss was Melkor. He never referred to himself as Morgoth and neither did any of his vassels (unless they wanted to fry in the flame of Utumno.) Morgoth was a cursed name given him by Feanor and only used by His opponents. touche!

And to you O Aredhel the following quote is made from the index of the Silmarillion concerning Mandos.

"Mandos - The place of the dwelling in Aman of the Vala properly called Namo, the Judge, though this name was seldom used, and he himself was usually referred to as Mandos. Named as Vala: 25....etc, etc, etc" Mandos was the name of the place AND the common name of the Vala Namo! I rest my case.

Not exactly thats not what it says there is no definitive answer the correct quote is

"Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos ........ and Mandos under Illuvatar alone save Manwe knows wither they go after the time of recollection....."

p121 of the book

Which is CONSIDERABLY different if you miss out the first two words. Hey its much easier to go trolling through the book. But where's the fun in that eh ?

Originally posted by Grond
Alas, Cian has done my research and proved my point all at once without Grond having to open a book. Thanks to you O Learned Cian and to you Brent, my boss was Melkor. He never referred to himself as Morgoth and neither did any of his vassels (unless they wanted to fry in the flame of Utumno.) Morgoth was a cursed name given him by Feanor and only used by His opponents. touche!

And to you O Aredhel the following quote is made from the index of the Silmarillion concerning Mandos.

"Mandos - The place of the dwelling in Aman of the Vala properly called Namo, the Judge, though this name was seldom used, and he himself was usually referred to as Mandos. Named as Vala: 25....etc, etc, etc" Mandos was the name of the place AND the common name of the Vala Namo! I rest my case.

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What case ? I'm not sure I see it. The brillance of the prof is his use of language.

Morgoth or more properly Morgoth Bauglir and its a "given name as the norse term it. It means 'Black Enemy'; 'Bauglir' is 'The Constrainer' His choice doesn't seem to matter @ p32 "last of all is set the name of melkor, he who arises in might. But that name he has forfeited"
Whereas Mandos is the name of a place means prison fortress. Poor old Vala always gets called after his job !!

Originally posted by Cian
I don't know if I'm missing the point here, (hey, it happens ) but here's some 'stuffs' of possible interest anyway:




"The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world ... (my edit) ... mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden'." JRRT

"Neither had they of course any special information concerning what 'death' portended for Men. They believed that it meant 'liberation from the circles of the World', and was in that respect to them enviable." JRRT

Sorry that some of that is plucked from context, edited for brevity and vaguely whatnot, but I type one-fingered

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Don't be sorry the latter part is interesting is that from The Etymologies (The History of Middle-earth Volume 5, The Lost Road and Other Writings III The Etymologies), or letters ?

Originally posted by Brent


What case ? I'm not sure I see it. The brillance of the prof is his use of language.

Morgoth or more properly Morgoth Bauglir and its a "given name as the norse term it. It means 'Black Enemy'; 'Bauglir' is 'The Constrainer' His choice doesn't seem to matter @ p32 "last of all is set the name of melkor, he who arises in might. But that name he has forfeited"
Whereas Mandos is the name of a place means prison fortress. Poor old Vala always gets called after his job !!

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Your quote doesn't bear on how the name was received. If you'll look in the Index of The Sil you will read under Morgoth.... the following, "The Black Enemy, name of Melkor, first given to him by Feanor after the rape of the Silmarils." and in the text in the 10th paragraph of the chapter entitled "Flight of the Noldor" it states, "The Feanor rose, and lifting up his hand before Manwe he cursed Melkor, naming him Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World; and by that name only was he known to the Eldar ever after."

Please O Brent the Learned.... don't make me prove every statement I make with the quotes from the book. I'll never have time to do any constructive posting on the threads.

Originally posted by Grond
... I'll never have time to do any constructive posting on the threads.

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Are we meant to do constructive posts here??? Why didn't anyone tell me??? I always thought an off topic post here or there would do... Jeeez I must've missed sumthin', I better get out my books

*runs and prepares to get slaughtered for this one...*

Despite my pre-apology for "editing" I'll yet say a quick sorry for cutting off a quote ~ it was not meant to mis-represent a conception, but I believed the fuller conception was presented in the Athrabeth anyway, so I thought ideas were better 'covered' therein.

Still, I should not have been lazy. Brent, the parts you quoted were from two seperate Letters ... not the only mentions (in this regard) in Letters I should add.

The Grey Havens?

Hi, all. I have a few questions about the general idea of The Grey Havens, which my small amount of resources won't let me in on. I know that it's the final destination of Frodo, Bilbo, Galadriel, Elrond, etc, etc. However, what does it hold for it's visitors? Do they pass away or merely live a life of immortality? What is the place exactly like? Why do the Ringbearers choose to travel there rather than live in Middle-earth?

Any explanations and/or clues will be greatly appreciated! Cheers.

Well the Havens themselves are on the West coast of Eriador on the Gulf of Lune. The ring bearers and elves etc set sail for the Uttermost West, kind of paradise really.

You need to read Silmarillion to learn more

I would not wish to portray 'The lands of the Valar' by giving my account of their wonder and beauty. Instead, locate a paperback copy of the Silmarillion and read until you are filled with knowledge that will help you truly understand the depth of Tolkiens creation and the wonder of the Valar.

This is a complete cop-out because I don't believe anyone can truly explain Valinor and do it justice,except only the author himself.

Hello, how are you?

The "Grey Havens" isn't actually the final destination for Bilbo, Frodo, Gimli, Legolas etc, it is a costal town and harbour, from which they travel out to sea to reach the "Undying Lands". These lands are located far across the "Great Sea", and is the home of the the Valar, Maiar and Elves. However only the Elves from Middle-Earth are allowed to travel to it, with the exception of those mortals who are specially granted by the Valar. Mortals who travel there unfortunately do not become immortal like the Elves. As for the reason why the heroes of the ring wanted to live there can be a number of things. They had never seen the lands before, so it would be a new experience I suppose.

The Grey Havens are west of the Blue Mountains, which are not very far from the Shire. The Grey Havens can be seen as a port of sorts, whee ships are constructed by Cirdan, believed to be the oldest elf living, and other elves to carry elves to Valinor. There have been but few exceptions, for only elves may venture to Valinore. Frodo left because he was weary and ill, and the past haunted him. Valinor is home to the Vala, who may be considered wither gods or archangels in Tolkien's world. In there land it was like perpetual spring, beautiful and glorious, and only there could Frodo heal his wounds. Gandalf arrived from Valinor, along with Saruman, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards to put a stop to Sauron. Bilbo left, well, I think because he was old and just wanted to see the place. The elves left because they were weary of the sorrows of Middle-earth, and could only find peace there. Hope that helped.

Originally posted by Dengen-Goroth
The Grey Havens are west of the Blue Mountains, which are not very far from the Shire. The Grey Havens can be seen as a port of sorts, whee ships are constructed by Cirdan, believed to be the oldest elf living, and other elves to carry elves to Valinor. There have been but few exceptions, for only elves may venture to Valinore. Frodo left because he was weary and ill, and the past haunted him. Valinor is home to the Vala, who may be considered wither gods or archangels in Tolkien's world. In there land it was like perpetual spring, beautiful and glorious, and only there could Frodo heal his wounds. Gandalf arrived from Valinor, along with Saruman, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards to put a stop to Sauron. Bilbo left, well, I think because he was old and just wanted to see the place. The elves left because they were weary of the sorrows of Middle-earth, and could only find peace there. Hope that helped.

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It helped very much, thank you!

Can someone please explain the ending?

Ok, this is making Hawkblaze very very mad.

Can someone please explain to me the ending of LOTR? I asked the most obsessed Tolkien nut I know and all he could tell me is "The Grey Havens are 'Where the elves go.'" Is it heaven? Is it a different continent? What the heck are the Grey Havens!!!?

I'm sure there's someone on here who knows this a lot better than I do, but I'll try.
In the first age (the LotR's in the third) many of the elves were invited to Valinor by the Valar (kind of like gods). The Valar want the elves to go there so they can live in peace and happiness and be taught, basically. A lot happens, which I won't try to explain b/c I'd probably mess it up, but the elves end up rebelling and leaving. Ater te elves who return to middle earth fight against Melkor (the bad valar, Sauron was his servant), the Valar allow them to return to Valinor if they become weary of Middle Earth. To get there, the elves take a ship, from the Grey Havens (which I'm guessing is a city where the ships are built). Because he was a ringbearer, Frodo is allowed to go, and Gimli is allowed to go either because of his respect for Galadriel or his friendship with Legolas. I hope this makes sense.

Originally posted by Nienor
I'm sure there's someone on here who knows this a lot better than I do, but I'll try.
In the first age (the LotR's in the third) many of the elves were invited to Valinor by the Valar (kind of like gods). The Valar want the elves to go there so they can live in peace and happiness and be taught, basically. A lot happens, which I won't try to explain b/c I'd probably mess it up, but the elves end up rebelling and leaving. Ater te elves who return to middle earth fight against Melkor (the bad valar, Sauron was his servant), the Valar allow them to return to Valinor if they become weary of Middle Earth. To get there, the elves take a ship, from the Grey Havens (which I'm guessing is a city where the ships are built). Because he was a ringbearer, Frodo is allowed to go, and Gimli is allowed to go either because of his respect for Galadriel or his friendship with Legolas. I hope this makes sense.

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Bilbo and Sam got to go to cause they handled the ring themselves. The Grey Havens is were Cirdan lives. He has dewlt in M.E in all ages. They live their cause it is close 2 valinor and it is a great harbour and trees are handing.

Just to clarify...Frodo and Bilbo get to go to Grey Havens..Sam doesn't get to. Sam Gamgee, Merry and Pippin watch the party leave...then go home.

indeed in the book it is only frodo and bilbo that leave, but sam gamgee is left there to live a happy life with his family.
Sam does after many years leave to goto the heavens, this is not documented in the LOTR.

It's in the appendices somewhere