The 🧙Istari & Glorfindel - Arrival Dates?

[Troll]

I was wondering if some knowledgeable person could explain this... It's written in some wikis (such as this one) the the Blue Wizards and possibly also Glorfindel arrived in Middle Earth in SA 1200 or 1600, whereas Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast arrived around TA 1000.

The RotK Appendices only mention a single ship bearing the Istari, so I always figured they all showed up at the same time. Does anyone know of any basis for the claims of Second Age arrivals?

 

[Elthir]

Ah, found some of this...


A late text

Tolkien here muses on the success of the other two: 'The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age' (and it was said that the reincarnated Glorfindel probably came to Middle-earth in SA 1600). And... [they] '... must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.' According to this late note their names are Morinehtar and Romestamo (or Rome(n)star).

another late note

'no names are recorded for the two wizards'

But compare with yet another passage, similarly dated very late (probably 1972)... 'Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari -- that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom. Of the other two nothing is said in published work save the reference to the five wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman. Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, waning in power, and of the uncorrupted Men of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South.'

To my mind this late text implies that all the Istari came at the same general time, better agreeing with what was published in The Lord of the Rings, and in my opinion casting doubt on the other late conception that the other two came much earlier and had a measure of 'success' in general (although which text is later than the other isn't known in any event).

 

[Troll]

Ah, thanks for the info. Do you consider this to be a situation where one can justifiably say "Tolkien wasn't sure and it probably doesn't matter anyway?"

If I had to pick a scenario, I'd probably go with the one that presents a later arrival for the entire company of six, since I get the feeling that the Men of the West were outnumbered quite badly in the Second and Third Ages. The idea that there was some kind of numerical parity as the result of the efforts of the Blue doesn't jive with the impression I get that in basically every major battle, the forces of Sauron have heavily outnumbered the forces of Good.

I also found it kind of odd that Glorfindel and Gandalf would have arrived at different times, since various wikis have described the two of them to have shared a friendship in Valinor. Then again, when orders come down from Taniquetil, most folks don't exactly have leave to question them.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter a whole lot, but it always bugs me to find inconsistencies in wiki sources that should ideally all be drawing from the same body of work. If I have learned anything from my time here on TTF, it is that I should get my hands on a copy of HoME somehow, since everything is, if not answered, at least addressed in its many pages.

 

[Elthir]

Ah, thanks for the info. Do you consider this to be a situation where one can justifiably say "Tolkien wasn't sure and it probably doesn't matter anyway?"

Hmm, the concept that something about Tolkien might not matter is new to me, and I can't wrap my head around it... but anyway I would agree that Tolkien seems to still be hunting the truth here. To me it appears as if he was thinking of two different concepts on the reverse sides of the same page!


I'm going with the more legible version... :*D

... but more because I think it agrees with Appendix B, that the Wizards appeared in the Third Age. Especially with respect to some of these late texts, I'm not sure Tolkien was always paying attention to what he had already published, or remembered what he had published versus what he had merely written at one point. I've no real problem with the Istari having more than one arrival, as it appears from an earlier essay published in Unfinished Tales for instance (the famed 'Blue Wizards' text), but I still imagine the ships as landing around the same general period of the Third Age.

Incidentally (spoiler alert if I recall correctly), according to the first Glorfindel essay Laurefindel Ondolindello was a companion to Gandalf on his voyage, both arriving in the Third Age, but Tolkien appears to have changed this in the following version, giving Glorfindel a ship to Middle-earth before the removal of Aman.

 

[Bucky]

Troll,

you've hit upon one of my pet peeves with all Tolkiendom these daze:

The outright 'running wild' with information & jumping to conclusions that the author himself never intended...

And then these 'experts' will go on saying that Tolkien, as fine as stickler for detail as any author that ever lived, was fine with folks tearing apart his works & reinterpretting them. Whereas, when I read his Letters, he's basically going bonkers anytime somebody does just that!

So, back on topic, there's some debate as to when Glorfindel arrived back in M-e.

(I think at this point we can all agree that it is one & the same Glorfindel returned from the dead, right?)

There are several notes, from 1967, I believe, among the last Tolkien wrote, about Glorfindel possibly returning in the middle of the Second Age aboard a Numenorean ship via the Elves of Tol Eressea. This presents problems in & of itself as there's no mention of Glorfindel for another 3000 years, until facing off versus the Witch-king in T.A. 1975...

Where was Glorfindel all that time? Wasn't he involved in the Last Alliance? There in the final battle on Mount Doom? Others of little or no more import are mentioned like Thranduil & Cirdan.....

Plus, the Istari are, in published accounts, said to have all come at once around 1000 in the Third Age.

So, the idea of Glorfindel & the two Blue Wizards appearing in the middle of the Second Age on a Numenorean ship is not only an unlikely scenario, it would require editting the published TLOR.

So, it's out.

Glorfindel could've come alone, but it still requires special passage from the Numenoreans (not a big deal) and 3000 years of silence, so I tend to rule it out.

 

[Troll]

Hmm, the concept that something about Tolkien might not matter is new to me, and I can't wrap my head around it...

Hehehehe... :*D

Incidentally (spoiler alert if I recall correctly), according to the first Glorfindel essay Laurefindel Ondolindello was a companion to Gandalf on his voyage, both arriving in the Third Age, but Tolkien appears to have changed this in the following version, giving Glorfindel a ship to Middle-earth before the removal of Aman.

Huh. So what did ol' Findey do for the entire Second Age? It seems like kind of a waste of storytelling potential for the Valar to send back a lone reincarnated vessel of divine wrath, only for him to do absolutely nothing for the next several thousand years.

From my POV, it's one thing for him to have been sent in TA 1000 with the wizards solely because his intervention will someday be needed at the Ford of Bruinen to save the Ringbearer from the Nine, but that's only about 2000 years of waiting (and only 900 years until he drives the Witch-King from the north, to boot). But sending him back on a ship all his own, to do nothing he couldn't have done if he'd been sent later seems somewhat odd.

I wonder if anyone has written a (decent) fanfiction "Journeys of Glorfindel" anywhere. Maybe he spent a few centuries marshalling the foes of the Enemy in Nardor. ;*)

 

[Elthir]

(...) Maybe he spent a few centuries marshalling the foes of the Enemy in Nardor. ;*)

Or maybe marshalling the foes of the enemy Nardor himself? That dragon was a nuisance afterall, what with living 'only' 1,000 years long (I believe he was hatched in the Sindarin-named Esgaroth region).

Where was Glorfindel all that time? Wasn't he involved in the Last Alliance?

I would suggest the possibility that Glorfindel returned in the Second Age to strengthen in a similar way as the Maiar, at least in part. Such a famed Elvish paragon would certainly be an inspiration I think, and a great leader, along with bringing his martial skills specifically. Plus:

'it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though (not yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the war.'

This is a note from JRRT that Christopher Tolkien thinks presumably came between the two Glorfindel essays, and to my mind Glorfindel's '(not yet) mentioned' role is notable. The idea seems to be: if Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond in this crisis, then something should be made of his role in this war, as if Tolkien plans to add mention of Glorfindel here (in some way).

Plus, in my opinion it's not necessarily problematic for a brief account of the Last Alliance, for example, to not reference Glorfindel, considering 'so many great princes and captains' assembled (The Council of Elrond), and I note that Glorfindel was present in Third Age 1975 at the defeat of the Witch-king, but still not noted as such in the brief Tale of Years specifically.

Although admittedly it may be a bit obvious to say a brief text is too brief to necessarily note everyone, even the mighty Laurefindel.

:*D