The Last ⚔️Battle

[Mighty Sam]

THe LAsT BatTLe!!!

I want to know everyone's thoughts on this subject. ok now in nearly every Tolkien book somewhere he mentions "the last battle" ok, i was wondering if that was something he intended to write? or just left open?

Also would u like to see Christopher Tolkien actually write that or what??

EVERYONE MUST RESPOND TO THIS!!!

this subject has been bothering me forever.

 

[The Tall Hobbit]

Actually, Tolkien wrote several versions of the Last Battle.

From HOME vol. 1 - The Book of Lost Tales, Part I:

For 'tis said that ere the Great End come Melko shall in some wise contrive a quarrel between Moon and Sun, and Ilinsor shall seek to follow Urwendi through the Gates, and when they are gone the Gates of both East and West will be destroyed, and Urwendi and Ilinsor shall be lost. So shall it be that Fionwe Urion, son of Manwe, of love for Urwendi shall in the end be Melko's bane, and shall destroy the world to destroy his foe, and so shall all things then be rolled away.

From HOME vol. 2 - The Book of Lost Tales, Part II:

Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil.

From HOME vol. 4 - The Shaping of Middle Earth:

When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged.

In those days the Silmarils shall be recovered from sea and earth and air, and Maidros shall break them and Belaurin with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and the great light shall come forth again, and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled so that it goes out over the world, and Gods and Elves and Men shall grow young again, and all their dead awake.

Also from HOME vol. 4 - The Shaping of Middle Earth:

Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall the Silmarils' be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out all over the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods.

From HOME vol. 5 - The Lost Road:

Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

 

[BelDain]

TTH, could you be a little more thorough when you give an answer. These quotes you provide don't really clear anything up at all. Thanks.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Looks like The End will be an event of great glory and joy.I find this part especially beautiful:
"...and the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled so that it goes out over the world, and Gods and Elves and Men shall grow young again, and all their dead awake."
Just wonderful,such a happy ending.Yay!

 

[Mighty Sam]

Not every1 responded yet!

More thoughts on this subject. i would like do actually write my own version of the last battle and i need more info. thank you much.

 

[Arathin]

but men were never admitted into the glory or joy. Only Turin of all men was named, and he with a place with the Gods, a blest son of Valar. I believe this means that all men, or most, will cease to exist from this point on.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Arathin
but men were never admitted into the glory or joy. Only Turin of all men was named, and he with a place with the Gods, a blest son of Valar. I believe this means that all men, or most, will cease to exist from this point on.

You must have overlooked the quote posted by The Tall Hobbit above,

from HoMe Volume IV, The Shaping of Middle-earth
When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged.

In those days the Silmarils shall be recovered from sea and earth and air, and Maidros shall break them and Belaurin with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and the great light shall come forth again, and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled so that it goes out over the world, and Gods and Elves and Men shall grow young again, and all their dead awake.

This is one of the versions and gives Man a place with the Gods (Valar/Maiar) and the Elves.

 

[Arathin]

well that is one against how many?

 

[Melian Le Fay]

I don't think Tolkien ever ment for men such a horrible destiny - seizing to exist! In one of his versions (the most hopful) he said that all will live again - gods, elves and men. In other versiions he says that the fate of men is still UNKNOWN...but that doesn't have to be an ugly destiny...just a misterious one!

 

[Melian Le Fay]

Does anyone of you remember that part from The Silmarillion, I think it concernes the Dwarves, when it is said that Aule (the creator of Dwarves, I hope I got the name right) pleeded for the place for Dwarves among the Children of Iluvatar, when the world comes to its end ,and all the children should sing with the Ainur...Or something like that...I've read the book only once so far....
Well, my point is: if he said that all the children of Iluvatar will be there, when the world is ended, does that include all the mortals?
If anyone can help me with these quotes, please, do!

 

[Grond]

Millena, is this what you are looking for???

from The Silmarillion, The Quenta Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna
...Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.

 

[Melian Le Fay]

Hey, thanks a lot , Grond!!! That was concerning my questions on the Dwarves...
But the fate of Men...now, that surely bothers me!!! I'll try to dig out that part from the Sil, about the end of the world, and the Last Song...
Hmmz...another question: The Last Battle and The end of the World (from Ainulindale)....are those two the same..........?

 

[Melian Le Fay]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

I've just realized I'm a Guildsman!!!!! And the last time I saw, I was a .... hmmzz... an aprentice!!! Does anyone know what that means? And if I;m a guildsman, which guild I belong to, then?!!!
Please, please, please...explain that to me!!!

 

[Grond]

Re: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Originally posted by Millena
I've just realized I'm a Guildsman!!!!! And the last time I saw, I was a .... hmmzz... an aprentice!!! Does anyone know what that means? And if I;m a guildsman, which guild I belong to, then?!!!
Please, please, please...explain that to me!!!

Guildsman is just a rank. You begin as an apprentice and then after 30 posts, are promoted to a guildsman.

As far as Guilds, you may join them in the Guilds forum and most don't have any minimum post requirement. A good guild for you would be the Guild of Periath which is for 20 - 29 year olds. I belong to the Ost-in-Edhil which is for the over-30 crowd. We are getting ready to have our first inner-guild debate. Check it out in either of the Guild forums.

 

[Melian Le Fay]

Thanks a lot Grond!!!
I really appreciate it!!!

 

[Arathin]

Why have guilds for age groups? That is stupid. It separates people out by their age. I like this forum so much because it didn't do that. When people listen to me, they usually regard me as some annoying, know-it-all, seventeen year old tolkien fanatic, who reads too much. Here no one thinks that. What I say and I am taken into full account as if anyone had said it. I like not being frowned upon and told, "you don't know what you're talking about deary" when I know more or as much as the person I am talking to. That is my biggest petpeave.

 

[The Tall Hobbit]

From the Silmarillion, Chapter 1:

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

 

[Grond]

Been there, done that!! We've been through this before with other members of the forum. There are guilds for writers, poets, etc. etc. etc. There is also a guild for older Tolkien enthusiasts. There is a guild for 20 something Tolkien enthusiasts and you can make your own guild for teenagers if you like.

The guild system operates outside the normal confines of the forum in general. That is the latitude the Webmaster has given us here and we appreciate him for it. While the age group guild may appear devisive, it isn't really. Our guild topics are basically open for everyone. We may on occassioin have a closed topic but that is rarely.

Sorry you don't approve.... but our guild is our guild.

 

[Melian Le Fay]

To The Tall Hobbit

I don't know to whom you ment to post that quote, but that was exactly what I was looking for!!!
That part, when the writer says that the Valar told the Elves in valinor that Men shall join them in the second music...I believe that "The Second Music of the Ainur" means the end of the world....Am I right?
And when Tolkien wrote "Men", did he mean all Men, who ever lived, or just the ones who were alive at the end of the world...?
I mean to say, if Tolkien ment "all Men", then he indirectly revealed his idea of the fate of men!
If anyone's interested in discussing this idea, please, come forward, don't be shy!

 

[Arathin]

Millena has just brought out some very good points.

Grond I don't do guilds anyway. I was just commenting that I didn't like the idea of age guilds.