The Last ⚔️Battle

[Melian Le Fay]

People who treat Tolkien like that, deserve to be kicked out...I tried to kick out my dad, but no chance..it's his house! Just kidding, of course, I don't mean anything bad...

 

[Melian Le Fay]

Originally posted by LoreMaster
I find myself thinking back to certain sad things, such as the fate of the Ents, and how elves have to leave Middle-Earth during the Fourth Age.

I'm sure many questions will be answered if I can find time to finish The Chronicles of Narnia and move on to read the Silmarillion.

Forget Narnia, read the Sil!!!! Trust me, I've read them both, and the Sil is damn better than that kids' book!!!!!
And concerning the sad things at the end of LOTR...I cried! I cried because the Elves are leaving, I cried because of the Ents, I cried because of Arwen's end............and i never cry when I read a book!
I think I'm too bonded with Tolkien's world......... So saaaaaaaaaaad!

 

[Arathin]

Everyone on this forum is bonded to the Tolkien World. That is why we're all here. It is part of us. That is why I am getting an Elvish Rune tattoo on my arm and speak Elvish to strangers. Yeah, sure, people look at me funny, but that isn't the point. The point is that Tolkien wrote a work that is so involving and so intising that we live in that world every day of our lives. I was walking through a forest today (walking a friend's dog for her) and started talking to the trees in Elvish. Twas amusing as anything. The dog was even looking at me funny when I hugged an old tree that looked to me like Fangorn himself.

 

[Melian Le Fay]

Mmmmm...I started squeking like a damn Teletubby when I read your post, Arathin... I can imagine how you feel! Nothing has ever overwhelmed me like Tolkien's world....It's one of the reasons I started learning swordfighting and archery... And I want to make myself some elven chlothes, except I cant find any models...Weird, huh?
But I LOVE it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LoreMaster]

I decided I'd inform you all that now I'm not planning on finishing the Chronicles of Narnia before I start the Silmarillion.

 

[Melian Le Fay]

That's the spirit!

 

[Beleg]

Feanor (representing Elves)

But wasn't it Fionwe? Son/Herald of Manwe?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Beleg, Fëanor is also going to be there, as a main representitive of the Elves I guess. Eonwe is a Maia - which I am sure you are aware of.

 

[Inderjit S]

Feanor will be there, but not at the Last battle, he will be relased from Mandos to give Yavanna the jewels.

Here, we still have the conception of Valarin procreation, latter abandoned and Fionwe and Eonwe are one and the same.

The canonical value of The second Prophecy is dubious. Remeber, Turin's 'coming back' to to speak was a mannish 'myth' so to speak, even though Tolkien had entertained the idea of Turin's return from BoLT and hints at it in the 'Latter Quenta' (HoME 10) iin which he comments that Menelvagor ('Swordsman of the sky', seen by Frodo, Sam and Pippin when they met Gildor in Woody End in 'Three is Company')was a sign of Turin's coming, though I seem to have misplaced my copy of Morgoths Ring and am unable to find a quote.

 

[Beleg]

Its [/B]Menelmakar, In Sindarian Menelvagor.

Here's the Quote, from the Grey Anals.

Now Varda took the light that issued from Telperion and was stored in Valinor and she made stars newer and brighter.And many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda. The greatest of these was Menelmakar, the Swordsman of the Sky. This, it is said, was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of the days.

It's interesting to read the commentry provided by Christopher Tolkien in this regard in Grey Annals.

On the two star-makings see There is here the remarkable statement that Menelmakar (Orion) was 'a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.' This is a reference to the Second Prophecy of Mandos (in the Quenta,IV, 165):
Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor.
In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right
shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, coming from the halls of Mandos;
and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
The Quenya name Menelmacar is mentioned in Appendix E (I) to The Lord of the Rings; in The Fellowship of the Ring (p. 91) appears the Sindarin form: the Swordsman of the Sky, Menel-vagor with his shining belt'.

The doom of Turin in never made clear, with the words coming from the halls of Mandos often changed.

I have heard that Second Prophecy was abondaned. Where is the reference to abandonment found?

 

[Inderjit S]

There is never (Or I belive) any abanonment of the S.P but one can assume that all evidence is weighed against the events mentioned actually taking place. As I have mentioned the Second Prophecy is not a authentic Noldorin text, in fact the 'Athrabeth' claims that there wasn't even a prophecy that Namo made concerning Arda's end:

and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.

Valaquenta; Published Silmarillion

One can therefore assume that it was a Numenorean courruption of a Eldarin text, or idea, liek the ideas of the Sun and Moon coming from the Two Trees, but it seems this has little basis. I believe Andreth comments on him coming back to slay Ancalagon, though this was later given to Earendil, and at one point Turin came back in the Dagorath to slay Anacalagon. It's VERY confusing.

It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.

Turin was also a man, so wouldn't this be impossible and aganst his 'fate' to stay in Mandos? And doesn't he become a 'Child of a God' at the end? Also note, again the term 'Child of a God' represents Numenorean mythos since the Valar shouldn't rightly be called 'gods' but were dubbed so by some men, It's kind of like Gimli calling Galadriel 'Queen of Lothlorien'.

Addition: It seems that Turin's slaying of Morgoth was one of Andreth's prophecies, carried down perhaps:

The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Túrin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.

Its [/B]Menelmakar, In Sindarian Menelvagor.

So Menelmakar is Sindarin and Menelvagor Quenya?

It also seems from the latter Quenta of HoME ten that the association of Menelmakar/vagor as a herald of Turin was dropped.

That Menelmakar forebodes the Last Battle is said in both sources, but LQ does not name it as a sign of Túrin Turambar.

 

[Beleg]

So Menelmakar is Sindarin and Menelvagor Quenya?

No, perhaps I wrote it wrong.

The Quenya name Menelmacar is mentioned in Appendix E (I) to The Lord of the Rings; in The Fellowship of the Ring (p. 91) appears the Sindarin form: the Swordsman of the Sky, Menel-vagor with his shining belt'

This shows that Menelmacar is Quenya, while Menelvagor is Sindarin.
Although I am interested in the difference between "MenelmaKar" and "MenelmaCar". Why is that so?

And doesn't he become a 'Child of a God' at the end?

He is called, Son of Valar in the final version, but Quenta also calls Turin "As one of the Gods".
Can you provide a Quote where Turin is called "Child of God"?

Addition: It seems that Turin's slaying of Morgoth was one of Andreth's prophecies, carried down perhaps:

The Quote that you provided shows that Andreth's prophecy was that Turin shall slay Ancalageon, not Morgoth himself. But how will he slay Ancalageon when Ancalageon is allready dead, I don't know.
As far as I can think, the concept of Earendil, slaying Ancalageon is pretty old and Athrabeth was written considerbly late; in 1950's.

 

[Inderjit S]

The Quote that you provided shows that Andreth's prophecy was that Turin shall slay Ancalageon, not Morgoth himself. But how will he slay Ancalageon when Ancalageon is allready dead, I don't know.

Yes. But in this context Turin slew Ancalagon in the Dagorath.

The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Turin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.

Footnote 17; Problem of Ros

Can you provide a Quote where Turin is called "Child of God"?

I never said Child of god in the context of Eru but in the context of child of one of the Valar. I got it from:

and no man it names save Turin only and to him it gives a place amongst the sons of the Valar

S.P; HoME 5

Evidently this is NOT canonical and I was rather rash in my term 'sons of god'.

The Quote that you provided shows that Andreth's prophecy was that Turin shall slay Ancalageon, not Morgoth himself. But how will he slay Ancalageon when Ancalageon is allready dead, I don't know.

Yes but is it not possible that the Numenorenas got Morgoth/Ancalgon confused, in some way or mis-interpreted her words? It has happened. Just look at the mess they made with the Two Trees. Maybe the felt bitter agaisnt Morgoth and felt that his slaying at the hands of a man would reddem them. Just ridiculous speculation from me.

"MenelmaKar" and "MenelmaCar". Why is that so?

C always has the value of a Elven K....celeb 'silver should be prounced keleb

Sometimes her changed round the C/K maybe because of prounciation. E.G: In M.T he says he will call OrCs OrKs. He changes TulCas to TulKas.

Here is what I can find on the word Makar:

The best example is *maikâ, Q. maika "blade of a cutting tool or weapon, especially sword-blade" in relation to *MAK "cut, hew with a sharp edge", Q. make "hews with a sword", makil "sword", makar "swordsman". No other origin for maika can be found, and it cannot be a very early word made from lost material.

Quendi and Eldar;Appendix D

Makar was also a name of a Ainur in BoLT.

It also appears in the etymoligies in *pretty-much* the same context as Q&E/d. (HoME 5)

P.S It is 'Ancalagon'=rushing jaws, Sindarian

Anak-cf. Nak bite Q anca jaw N anc Ancalagon

and

Narak- tear rend, naraka rushing, rapid, violent

Both terms taken from HoME 5; Etymologies.

 

[Turin]

What is BoLT?

 

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Turin
What is BoLT?

BoLT is an abbreviation for 'Book of Lost Tales' which is seperated into two parts. These two parts are the first two volumes of HoMe, and are Tolkien's earliest writings (he wrote them in 1916-1917) on what later became the Silmarillion.

 

[Turin]

Ok thanks

 

[Helcaraxë]

With all the different versions of everything, I always rely on the Sil for the final word since it was the most recently updated and the most accurate representation of Tolkien's final decisions. I don't have an exact quote, but it says that after Melkor is defeated, and the last battle won by the Valar, there will be a new music of the Ainur, greater than the first and more beatiful, in which all the children of Iluvatar shall participate, and finally (most importantly) the world will be remade and be perfect.

 

[Beleg]

I always rely on the Sil for the final word since it was the most recently updated and the most accurate representation of Tolkien's final decisions

Yeah sure, Gil-Galad son of Fingon.. eek! The whole alternative version of Morwen's death....

 

[Helcaraxë]

What does "and so shall all things be rolled away..." mean? If it means everything shall cease to exist, why would Eru permit that? Or maybe it means rolled away into the new world that shall be created in the second music of the Ainur. And which of those versions is the most recent? regardless of the version, one thing is absolutely clear: that the world will be remade and the music shall be "played aright." Or at least thats how it seems.

 

[Helcaraxë]

Regardless, even in Tolkien's earliest version of the Music of the Ainur in the BLT (hint: it's not bacon lettuce and tomato... ) He makes it clear that there will be a mightier version of the Music after the end of days.

(BTW Beleg, yes..Gil-Galad is Fingon's son...and anyway, the HoME are no more reliable-Gothmog, son of Melko???!!!)