The Lay of Leithian

Elthir said:

An Anglo-Saxon sailing to Tol Eressea after it was removed from the Circles of the World isn't "impossible" if the Subcreator wills it (interestingly, an Elfwine character is still in play in the later 1950s, with respect to Elvish information), but apparently Bilbo comes to the fore here.

Ultimately Tolkien re-characterizes the authorship of certain (not all) First Age texts, mixes in what can happen within long years of transmission (including oral traditions, various authors and so on), and has the material brought to Middle-earth before the Undying Lands are removed from the World, and essentially gives old Bilbo the title Elfwine "Elf-friend" . . .

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Readers of HOME will find the above "summary" extremely simplified. But I have to eat soon.

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Fairly new to this depth of discussion but here goes . . .

Struggling to find a reference ATM (I am mostly interested in Vols 3, 4 & 5), but I was under the impression that AElfwine landed in Eressea by finding the straight path (and presumably returned the same way). I'll keep looking out for that one . . .

In the meantime, keep this going, it is good stuff!

Elthir said:

... Boiled down, you appear to be saying (as I read it anyway), that Tolkien hadn't enough supervision in the later 1950s, 1960s, to rein in the temptation of altering stuff he'd already written slash ideas he'd already imagined. ...

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I used both "supervision" and "quality control" as intentional exaggerations. Specifically about Lewis, JRRT mentioned the debt he owed to Lewis's "sheer encouragement" to continue his writing, pooh-poohing the "reciprocal influence" than some critics were zealously digging for as far as The Inklings were concerned (critical "focus" being subject to fashions as are many things, sometimes waxing and waning, sometimes mercifully falling into oblivion).

I do not consider (possible) lack of "supervision" - which JRRT subjected himself to voluntarily, so to speak, by reading his writings serially to The Inklings - to be the sole reason for the publication of TH and LoTR between 1937 and 1955, and the failure to publish anything else about Middle-earth before and after that in his lifetime (pace "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil"). Maturity as a writer - JRRT once mentioned "the mould" from which by then unrecognizable influences may sprout: well, it also take time for such influences to "decompose" into that mould! -, simple age, here I am thinking mainly post-publication of LoTR, external circumstances all played a role - including the very unpopular sheer luck. Publication of TH was the "Urknall", the German term I find more fitting than the English "Big Bang", as it basically means "Primal Bang"; in this convoluted train of thought the "Big Bang" was LoTR ...

JRRT's most admired, I think this is the right term, professional product was the 1936 "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics". It broke up a professional discussion that had become fossilized, or to use a more colorful metaphor, stuck several sticks of dynamite into what had become a logjam. Shippey made the point that JRRT could easily have produced, say, a voluminous professional printed version of "On Fairy Stories" - but to what audience? Shippey's professional audience was basically the same as JRRT's, and had shrunk even more from the small numbers of the 1930's and later. Shippey's take on it is that instead of producing such a professional, and by necessity abstract, tome, JRRT decided to prove his point (which may have been lost on most of his professional colleagues, certainly the "critics" part of them) by writing a book that encompassed what he expounded on in "On Fairy Stories".

I also think that we must not underrate the effect that WW II had on JRRT's writing of LoTR (not as far as content goes). After publication, JRRT himself (probably in a letter) recorded the reaction of some or many of his professional colleagues: "So that is what he was occupied with!" Well, during the extraordinary circumstances of that war, the "Inspectors" (to borrow a term from "Leaf by Niggle") were more lenient, or distracted, or whatever, so JRRT's "stealing of time" for LoTR that otherwise might have been expected to be spent on more professional matters (this would be potatoes?) went "uncensured".

To return to the OP "Lay of Leithian": as per HoMe vol. 3 "The Lays of Beleriand" JRRT started it around 1925, abandoning the very ambitious alliterative "Children of Húrin" for it in the process (and never returning to it after that). JRRT abandoned "Lay of Leithian" (I refuse to use the acronym LoL!!!) in 1931, after Lewis had had it read to him and had responded with the mock commentary of four (?) "experts" on the poem (something of a Beowulf thing, I would guess). As per the preface to LoB, Christopher mentions that JRRT received "... a detailed, and remarkably unconstrained, criticism of the poem from someone who knew and admired his poetry. .... There is no record of what my father thought of this criticism, .... but it must be associated in some way with the fact that in 1949 or 1951 he returned to The Lay of Leithian and began a revision that soon became virtually a new poem; ..."

This certainly looks like a confirmation of sorts of Lewis's (probably exaggerated) opinion of JRRT's reaction to criticism: either ignoring it completely, or starting all over again (the latter documented over and over again in the early writings of LoTR, mainly in HoMe vol. 6 "The Return of The Shadow".)

What appears to me to be a fact of JRRT's writing of all sorts is his tendency to not finish. Close to 60 years of writing that never was published in his lifetime - has that Guinness Book been notified of this? That may be why we all also owe a debt to Clive Staples Lewis in his continuous kicking of JRRT to finish, certainly LoTR, and perhaps TH, too. Not the only one to kick, Christopher also looms large (and Rayner Unwin for mending fences and more after JRRT had absolutely unnecessarily created a spat with George Allen & Unwin). But yes, given all of the other circumstances of 1930 to 1950, I would think still that the "supervision" that JRRT voluntarily subjected himself to in that period was decisive - TH and LoTR being all of Middle-earth he got published in his lifetime.

You're correct m4 (if I may shorten up your name)

As I say, my summary above is extremely compressed and starts with Elfwine/Eriol before there was even a Second Age . . . and later, he does find the straight path . . . although the "Straight Path" has a different meaning in The Drowning of Anadune, as in that text, the Elves from Oversea taught the Numenoreans that the World was round (never flat).

And again, it's not impossible for an Elfwine to find Eressea thousands of years after Bilbo lived, if the subcreator wills it, but Elfwine basically vanishes (externally) after the later 1950s, and Bilbo comes to the fore, with Numenor, as parts of the revised transmission.

🐾

Elthir said:

You're correct m4 (if I may shorten up your name)

As I say, my summary above is extremely compressed and starts with Elfwine/Eriol before there was even a Second Age . . . and later, he does find the straight path . . . although the "Straight Path" has a different meaning in The Drowning of Anadune, as in that text, the Elves from Oversea taught the Numenoreans that the World was round (never flat).

And again, it's not impossible for an Elfwine to find Eressea thousands of years after Bilbo lived, if the subcreator wills it, but Elfwine basically vanishes (externally) after the later 1950s, and Bilbo comes to the fore, with Numenor, as parts of the revised transmission.

🐾

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Not sure I'm happy to be called "MA" no more clues . . .

Thanks for confirming though, you had me worried that I'd got the story mixed up in a bad way, even though my imagination is focused on a much simpler version of the Mythology (pre-LotR) than you are discussing!

Olorgando said:

( . . . ) I do not consider (possible) lack of "supervision" ( . . .) to be the sole reason for the publication of TH and LoTR between 1937 and 1955, and the failure to publish anything else about Middle-earth before and after that in his lifetime (pace "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil").

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Just to note it, JRRT published The Road Goes Ever On too. And The Adventures of Tom Bombadil is particularly notable here with respect to Numenor slash Rivendell.

Olorgando said:

To return to the OP "Lay of Leithian": ( . . . )

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Okay, but in this section, what is there about Lewis' feedback, and that fact that Tolkien abandoned this Lay and returned to it in the 1950s . . . that has you snarled about Tolkien altering it (at least one version of it) to a song of Numenor instead of a song of the Noldor?

Olorgando said:

But yes, given all of the other circumstances of 1930 to 1950, I would think still that the "supervision" that JRRT voluntarily subjected himself to in that period was decisive - TH and LoTR being all of Middle-earth he got published in his lifetime.

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The arguable reasons for why so much of Tolkien's work never got published in his lifetime could make a nice thread, but I'm not sure I understand exactly how it connects to your seeming problem with Tolkien's transmission regarding First Age texts and tales.

pedantry alert: bing bing bing bing bing

Another thing Tolkien published in his lifetime was the revised edition of The Lord of the Rings, where he adds his Note On The Shire Records -- which is now to be fitted with what he published about Numenor in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

And in posthumously published texts, there is the Noldo Pengoloð . . . and yes I realize, despite that spelling, I simplify Ælfwine to Elfwine!

According to Quendi And Eldar, out of the destruction of Gondolin, Pengoloð: " . . . rescued a few ancient writings, and some of his own copies, compilations, and commentaries. It is due to this, and to his prodigious memory, that much of the knowledge of the Elder Days was preserved."

And: " . . . before the overthrow of Morgoth and the ruin of Beleriand, he collected much material among the survivors of the wars at Sirion's Mouth concerning languages and gesture-systems with which, owing to the isolation of Gondolin, he had not before had any direct acqaintance."

Dírhaval was also said to have gathered tidings and lore at Sirion, as in the waning days of Beleriand both Men and Elves came there from various places.

Elthir said:

Just to note it, JRRT published The Road Goes Ever On too. And The Adventures of Tom Bombadil is particularly notable here with respect to Numenor slash Rivendell.

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I have not been able to get my hands on a copy of "The Road Goes Ever On" so I must assume it is out of print (as a good deal of JRRT's writing is not). I'm guessing it falls in the category of poetry in a wider sense, for that see below ...
"The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" contained a lot of retreads of JRRT's earlier poetry, if often rewritten. Their fit to Middle-earth is at times tenuous ... and was published as a (gladly granted, I would assume) favor to his favorite Aunt Jane Neave, who lived in the "real-life" Bag End ...

Elthir said:

Okay, but in this section [Lay of Leithian], what is there about Lewis' feedback, and that fact that Tolkien abandoned this Lay and returned to it in the 1950s . . . that has you snarled about Tolkien altering it (at least one version of it) to a song of Numenor instead of a song of the Noldor?

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If you think that anything to do with poetry (JRRT's or otherwise) has me "snarled" in any sense, you are very definitely very wide of the mark. I have mentioned (perhaps not yet in TTF?) that for many early readings of LoTR I skipped the poems. I have managed to develop a certain, limited appreciation of at least the poems in LoTR by reading about JRRT. As an aside, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" remains the only "book of poetry" I have ever bought myself. But truth be told, I remain what can probably best be described as "tone-deaf" to poetry; my standard reaction would be puzzled incomprehension ...

I think what curled my lip into a snarl (and continues to do so) is JRRT's statement (probably in one of the last three volumes of HoMe) that "one cannot write that way anymore" or words to that effect. As to the fact of my being ignorant of a possible explanation of "why not" there appear to be three possibilities:

I have forgotten the explanation in a book published by Christopher (most likely for this case) that I have;
The explanation is in a book (written by whomever) that I do not own;
JRRT never explained it.

As it stands (I lack JRRT's explanation) my firm, and possibly lip-curled answer is "I disagree!"
Yes, I do consider quite a bit of JRRT's writing on M-e post publication of LoTR (and also between writing being finished and publication) to be below the LoTR standard. JRRT was clear on this when he commented that "sometimes the yeast does not leaven all of the lump of inspiration, and necessitates "mere" invention".

As to transmission:
In author-published, I believe that JRRT basically defined Bilbo's Red Book of Westmarch, including the "Translations from Elvish", as his source - the "Translations" being the source of the not-yet-published-in his-lifetime Silmarillion. I'll leave aside why Bilbo's adventure was in the form of a "children's Fairy-Story".
Fer cryin' out loud, people in Gondor were getting things wrong about what happened just weeks after the events. The Hobbits of the Shire considered the bar brawl of the "Battle of Bywater" to be more relevant than that "News from Bree" (or in this case from much further away that really confused them).

So we are to believe that LoTR (and TH) survived basically unscathed across millennia, while The Sil (sourced by Bilbo in Elven Rivendell) gives such a confused Elvish, Mannish and mixed tradition? Some of JRRT's writings about why the Elves, in a round world, would have only seen the stars seem to me to be among the most desperate, and unnecessary, writings that JRRT ever committed (as an old man ...)

Olorgando said:

"The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" contained a lot of retreads of JRRT's earlier poetry, if often rewritten. Their fit to Middle-earth is at times tenuous ...

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I'm not sure to what poems your refer that might be tenuous in fit, or if you mean that in a more sweeping sense . . .

. . . but my general reaction here is that Hobbits are allowed some whimsy and imagination, especially in poetry. The Reader doesn't have to believe a troll baked bread for the Winkle -- yet I can easily imagine a Hobbit writing it, which is how it fits, in my opinion. Again, not that that's one of the poems you're necessarily talking about, but for example.

In any case, the prime reason I bring it up is that the Numenorean connection is established in the opening to the poems, as well as a connection to First Age events or people (Turin for instance).

Olorgando said:

If you think that anything to do with poetry (JRRT's or otherwise) has me "snarled" in any sense, you are very definitely very wide of the mark.

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I didn't think that

Olorgando said:

I think what curled my lip into a snarl (and continues to do so) is JRRT's statement (probably in one of the last three volumes of HoMe) that "one cannot write that way anymore" or words to that effect.
( . . . ) As it stands (I lack JRRT's explanation) my firm, and possibly lip-curled answer is "I disagree!"

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There it is!

And I know exactly the statement you are referring to, in Myths Transformed text I, Morgoth's Ring. And it concerns the shape of the world and the origin of the lights of heaven.

Olorgando said:

As to transmission: So we are to believe that LoTR (and TH) survived basically unscathed across millennia, while The Sil (sourced by Bilbo in Elven Rivendell) gives such a confused Elvish, Mannish and mixed tradition?

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Yes, generally speaking

Although the question of how much confusion exists within a specific text is another matter.

With respect to the Quenta Silmarillion tradition specifically (not the legendarium as a whole) the blending of Mannish ideas began in the First Age, and we have thousands of years of transmission before we get to Rivendell. Then at some later historical point after the War of the Ring, generally speaking again, stuff is lost (or some of it), copying declines or stops, oral traditions die out, and so on. A lot can happen.

And is it possible to find "ancient" texts that essentially cover the same matter (myth-based or whatever), but were written thousands of years apart? And if so, is it also possible to find the older one, or even the oldest one, while much younger ones have still to be unearthed, and maybe won't be found for another two thousand years from now?

I say yes to all this. I love the transmission details of Tolkien's Notion Club Papers. You never know what you might find. And when! And what age that something is, or how close is it to the seeming original hand. Or why was X preserved (arguably) more faithfully that Y (if this can be determined).

In the Elwine tradition, the Hadorian Dirhaval wrote the Children of Hurin in Sindarin, in a mode of Elvish verse. Dirhaval was in Sirion when both Men and Elves had gathered, from Hithlum, Dor-Lomin, Nargothrond, Doriath, Gondolin, and the realms of the sons of Feanor . . .

. . . Elfwine the Anglo-saxon renders a version in prose. What copy did (somehow) Tolkien find? Here it was arguably the Old English copy from Elfwine . . . because yeah, we have plenty of surviving copies of the mythology of the Anglo-saxons too (meaning no we don't).

So yes we are asked to buy into "the book within the book" in both transmission scenarios, but for me, it adds a further level here, and one that some authors simply keep silent about, including how the reader has a copy of an ancient tale in his or her hands, in Modern English.

Olorgando said:

Some of JRRT's writings about why the Elves, in a round world, would have only seen the stars seem to me to be among the most desperate, and unnecessary, writings that JRRT ever committed (as an old man ...)

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Christopher Tolkien, War of the Jewels (my emphasis): "It seems that my father had resolved (at least for the purposes of this "fairy-Tale") the problem of the name "Star-folk" of the Elves in a beautifully simple way: . ."

I think this approach is far from desperate, but actually beautiful, and genius. But in any case, the larger point here might be: Tolkien's re-characterization of parts of the legendarium saved the origin of the sun for Quenta Silmarillion -- it saved the idea of the Sun hailing from one of the Two Trees.

In other words, Tolkien ultimately "answered" his (paraphrasing here): you can't do this anymore.
As he does do it! Abandoning (at least as a text) the new Elvish Quenta Silmarillion in Myths Transformed (what bits there are of it), to keep the arguably more "primitive" ideas in, if not in every single text.

And his change from the Elfwine transmission to the Numenor-Bilbo helped him do that.

In my opinions; or I read the evidence so far anyway 🐾

Elthir said:

Olorgando said:

As to transmission: So we are to believe that LoTR (and TH) survived basically unscathed across millennia, while The Sil (sourced by Bilbo in Elven Rivendell) gives such a confused Elvish, Mannish and mixed tradition?

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Yes, generally speaking

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To steal your line: (if I can steal from JRRT and others ... )

There it is!

I don't. Christopher didn't convince me. JRRT torpedoed his later arguments in his own writing within LoTR. 👎

JRRT torpedoed the idea of the Sun as a fruit and the once flat earth by saving them in the Quenta Silmarillion?

His later transmission arguments.

But you said above that your disagreement here was with JRRT's: "you can't do this anymore" . . .

. . . and Tolkien's revised transmission allowed him to do it!


Incidentally, neither The Lord of the Rings nor the revised Hobbit necessarily represent a once flat world mythology, nor a once sunless mythology.

Elthir said:

But you said above that your disagreement here was with JRRT's: "you can't do this anymore" . . .

. . . and Tolkien's revised transmission allowed him to do it!

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Correct. I believe that you can still do - meaning write - like that.
And the revised transmission is unnecessary and, to me, less plausible.

Very well with respect to your opinion of the revised transmission, but to my mind Tolkien essentially followed up his own statement by ultimately saying . . . yes, you can still write like that . . .

. . . especially within a legendarium that not unnaturally contains different perspectives and authors 🐾

It's some time since I read this volume and I haven't yet read the other HoME volumes, so this might sound a bit laughable. I was skimming the Lays some time after I read this thread about elvish/mannish tradition so when I saw the form Ar-Melian in the revised Lay, I had such a "wait a minute!" shock moment with flashes of Ar-Zimraphel until I thought it through and concluded there is probably no way it's a westron hint at the Númenóre transmission and is in all likeness a sindarin form I just haven't seen used in such a way before.

Niniel said:

I'm reading The Lays of Beleriand at the moment, and I have just finsihed The Lay of Leithian. I must say it's one of the best works of Tolkien I have ever read! Many people said they found Tolkien's poetry boring, and I sometimes thought so myself (the Children of Húrin was far less interesting), but the Lay of Leithian is absolutely wonderful! It's a shame Tolkien never finished it, though he got further with it than with many other works.
(This is not really a question or something, just an expression of my admiration for this extremely beautiful poem).

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I totally agree I have never been into poetry as such but once you get your head around the rhythm of they various Lays, they are fantastic pieces of work. Not knowledgeable enough after one reading to comment in detail but really enjoying this beautiful work. I am reading Beren and Luthien (the individual book) and building myself up to volume three of HOME. My mega Tolkien read continues (BOLT 1/2, then The Silmarillion, then The Shaping of Middle-earth, then Beren and Luthien about another 40 to go 🤣) and it's fascinating to read the development of the texts and surprising how much you pick up with multiple readings.
For some reason though I started at one point reading it in my head a la John Cooper Clarke 🤪

I love The Lay of Leithian and always feel so let down when I reach the end of what Tolkien wrote. Why did he have to stop writing such a beautiful work?

Starbrow said:

I love The Lay of Leithian and always feel so let down when I reach the end of what Tolkien wrote. Why did he have to stop writing such a beautiful work?

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Poetry is hard work, much harder than prose. Not that I know from personal experience, giving poetry a try, but I don't doubt that a nanosecond.
And all of JRRT's writings on Middle-earth were, let's face it, a hobby (if closely related to his profession).
And as he confessed in at least one letter, "Alas! I am a natural niggler!"
Probably meaning for him "good enough" just too often wasn't enough.

I like the Lay of Leithian too. It's beautiful and that's from someone who normally dislikes poetry. I agree that the Lay version of the Children of Hurin (or perhaps I mean alliterative verse) for me at least is disjointed and harder to follow. I found my mind wandering a lot on the latter but not the former. I can't work out if enjambment is clever or lazy. Perhaps multiple readings along with the prose will help in time.

The Lay of Leithian is an unparalleled piece of poetry. Comparable to the Divine Comedy.