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There's scant evidence about the Lord of the Nazgul's fighting prowess, by which I mean his actual ability with a sword (or a mace). The only person I can think of he actually fought was Frodo and that wasn't much of one. It's stated several times that he rules mainly through fear. IMO, his fight with Gandalf would have had to involve sorcery - a battle of spells, if you will.
Oh - one other thing, Ulairi: How could Gandalf the White be decapitated or stabbed to death? He himself tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli something to the effect that no weapon could now hurt him (sorry I had to paraphrase here - I don't have the text in front of me and will gladly accept a correction if I mis-remembered the quote).
On a practical point, how many of the Nazgul were there when Gandalf was assailed on Wethertop in FoTR? My memory tells me that all nine were there, and Gandalf says (paraphrasing) "I was hard pushed to it. Such fire and lightning must never have been seen there in many a long year".
My feeling about the confrontation between Gandalf and The Lord of the Nazgul at the gates of Minas Tirith is that Gandalf KNEW that he would not be the one to kill the LoTN. He KNEW this in the same way that his wisdom told him that a hobbit should carry the ring. He didn't attack the LoTN because that would have been folly in the thousands of attackers swarming behind. No, he was watching and waiting only.
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir There's scant evidence about the Lord of the Nazgul's fighting prowess, by which I mean his actual ability with a sword (or a mace). The only person I can think of he actually fought was Frodo and that wasn't much of one. It's stated several times that he rules mainly through fear. IMO, his fight with Gandalf would have had to involve sorcery - a battle of spells, if you will.
Yes, I agree that there is not much evidence on the topic.
[/I]Originally posted by Tar-Palantir[/I] It's stated several times that he rules mainly through fear. IMO, his fight with Gandalf would have had to involve sorcery - a battle of spells, if you will.
Yes, I also agree. It does state this many a time. It would definitely be a battle of sorcery.
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir Oh - one other thing, Ulairi: How could Gandalf the White be decapitated or stabbed to death? He himself tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli something to the effect that no weapon could now hurt him (sorry I had to paraphrase here - I don't have the text in front of me and will gladly accept a correction if I mis-remembered the quote).
Unfinished Tales Page 503
"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of the earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain."
Tolkien clearly states here that the Istari could be slain. Gandalf the White states that he was 'Saruman as he should have been'. Saruman was once like this and he too could be slain. So obviously these terms are contradictory. I am unsure which to believe, but IMO I will stick to the fact that Gandalf the White could be slain.
The witch-king seems to be the most confident (IMO) when he rides to the door of Gondor and meets Gandalf who comes to stop him. I just got a feeling that Gandalf was more "nervous" than the witch-king at that moment. And thats one of my favorite parts in the book
Having said that I don't think Gandalf would have been able to kill the witch-king by himself and without being able to use his true powers.
The fact that he got killed by Merry and Eowyn doesnt change my stance -it was pure luck, nothing more.
Originally posted by Ged On a practical point, how many of the Nazgul were there when Gandalf was assailed on Wethertop in FoTR? My memory tells me that all nine were there, and Gandalf says (paraphrasing) "I was hard pushed to it. Such fire and lightning must never have been seen there in many a long year".
My feeling about the confrontation between Gandalf and The Lord of the Nazgul at the gates of Minas Tirith is that Gandalf KNEW that he would not be the one to kill the LoTN. He KNEW this in the same way that his wisdom told him that a hobbit should carry the ring. He didn't attack the LoTN because that would have been folly in the thousands of attackers swarming behind. No, he was watching and waiting only.
"I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree - and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sul. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old."
There is no number mentioned, so I guess that we can presume that all Nine were there. Gandalf held them off, he did not defeat them. So, Gandalf the Grey could hold all of the Nazgul off, but he never slayed them. So, I guess we will never know the outcome nor dare to presume the outcome between Gandalf the White and the Lord of the Nazgul.
Originally posted by Ged My feeling about the confrontation between Gandalf and The Lord of the Nazgul at the gates of Minas Tirith is that Gandalf KNEW that he would not be the one to kill the LoTN. He KNEW this in the same way that his wisdom told him that a hobbit should carry the ring. He didn't attack the LoTN because that would have been folly in the thousands of attackers swarming behind. No, he was watching and waiting only.
Are u sure all nine were there? I think Gandalf says later that not all 9 were there and that some stayed a little while off. I think Glorfindel would have been able to beat them. He wasn't scared and he could ride openly against them. He was a powerful eldar, but i still think Gandalf was stronger and definitley wiser. Gandalf could hold them off and not be killed so he just had to find a way of killing the nazgul.
Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow Are u sure all nine were there? I think Gandalf says later that not all 9 were there and that some stayed a little while off.
I too also believed this, but I cannot find anywhere Gandalf actually gave the number.
Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow Glorfindel would have been able to beat them. He wasn't scared and he could ride openly against them. He was a powerful eldar, but i still think Gandalf was stronger and definitley wiser.
You'll start up an entirely different topic here Beleg if you are not careful. So lets not bring Glorfindel into the equation, however, it would make a great debate. Yes Gandalf was stronger and wiser than Glorfindel, as he was a Maia and Glorfindel was a powerful elf.
Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow Gandalf could hold them off and not be killed so he just had to find a way of killing the nazgul.
Yes, perhaps. But maybe Gandalf could not devise the Nazgul's demise. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes mayb. I don't know if Gandalf actually said that. But i think it says somewhere when they explained the whereabouts of all the riders that some satyed at the ford, thats why gandalf had to go through the entenmoors. Sorry i can't check it, i'm away fromm all my lotr books at the moment.
Originally posted by Ged
My feeling about the confrontation between Gandalf and The Lord of the Nazgul at the gates of Minas Tirith is that Gandalf KNEW that he would not be the one to kill the LoTN. He KNEW this in the same way that his wisdom told him that a hobbit should carry the ring. He didn't attack the LoTN because that would have been folly in the thousands of attackers swarming behind. No, he was watching and waiting only.
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Ged, I agree. However, in this thread we are being theoretical and hypothetical, so, what you have stated is irrelevant to the thread. No offence.
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Ulairi, not exactly sure what you mean by "theoretical and hypothetical". I am simply trying to explain why Gandalf didn't attack the Lord of the Nazgul at Minas Tirith, because the fact that he didn't do so has been used previously as an argument in favour of him being weaker than LoTN.
It is not clear to me why this is "irrelevant", but no offense taken.
Beleg Strongbow,
Re the number of Nazgul at Weathertop, there is a reference later from Gandalf to I think "only 5 being there", but doesn't this refer to the number of Nazgul attacking Frodo et al at Weathertop? The reason given for there only being 5 was because Gandalf had ridden away taking some of the 9 with him.