The mirror of 🧝Galadriel

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by ithrynluin


Oh-key....I guess you could call that a theory - but RD,you explain nothing about the way the mirror works.

Sure it does, the palatiri allows one to gaze across time and space right? So half a palatir would work half as well. So if the mirror is half a palatir filled with water, you would get a fuzzy glimpse of either what you desired to see or where your mind was drawn.

But I agree, it is rather a silly theory.

RD

 

[Rúmil]

Tss... and I always thought Palatíri were unbreakable... Fëanor was bragging again... "unbreakable! 'twill last you a lifetime! guaranteed!"

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Rumil
it's just a basin full of water. What makes it magic is the Mind of Galadriel, enhanced by the Ring. That at least I think is plain.

Rumil you are looking totally in the wrong direction. Let´s disect the quote shall we.

But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold

Now unless my eyes are tricking me it says that the mirror is showing these things not Galadriel.

For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be.

Again it says the mirror is showing these things

What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell

This must be some basin full of water. For although you say it is a plain basin it seems to be able to work and do things on its own without Galadriel. This is OBVIOUSLY more than just a basin full of water.

But the Mirror will also show things unbidden

Here again is an example of the mirror working outside of Galadriel´s mind.

So there you have it. The mirror is magic!

 

[Rúmil]

You say it yourself. The Mirror is just a plain basin of water. And it is magic. And it belongs to Galadriel. Coincidence? Also, it is very obviously Galadriel that makes it magic:

With water from the stream Galadriel filled the basin to the brim, and breathed on it, and when the water was still again she spoke. `Here is the Mirror of Galadriel,'

If it is the subconcious of the watcher that selects the images, it is obvious that the images shown seem unbidden to the watcher. My theory is, let me remind you, that out of the vast selection of things that could be seen through Galadriel's eyes, the watcher subconciously chooses which are of interest to him. And that fits perfectly with all the quotes you objected.

 

[Lantarion]

Great cracks, guys, I see the spirit of humour is far from squelched.

Oh, as for your theory, Camille:

"I know what did you saw, because it is also in my mind" (maybe not the exact quote) Galadriel knew what the mirrow shows, maybe it was some kind of telepatic stuff or...

Galadriel means, I think, that she is also thinking of the source of the troubled times, Sauron. I think that she suspects that Frodo saw the Eye, or perhaps she saw the Eye in the Mirror as well. But by "it is inmy mind also" (or whatever) she meant that she had also been thinking and worrying about Sauron, and the Ring.

Another thing: why didn't Galadriel want Frodo to touch the water? She says "Do not touch the water", so it sounds like nobody is allowed to touch the surface of the Mirror.. Perhaps if you touch it you turn into a star and have to use shades wherever you go; after all, it was the light from the star of Eärendil that supposedly gave the Mirror its powers... Or not, I'm just speculating here.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Pontifex
Another thing: why didn't Galadriel want Frodo to touch the water? She says "Do not touch the water", so it sounds like nobody is allowed to touch the surface of the Mirror.. Perhaps if you touch it you turn into a star and have to use shades wherever you go; after all, it was the light from the star of Eärendil that supposedly gave the Mirror its powers... Or not, I'm just speculating here.

I don't know why you aren't allowed to touch the surface of the water either.Maybe it would disturb the mirror and prevent it from functioning properly.
I don't think that Eärendil's star gave the mirror its powers. I remember that Sam saw a star descend on Galadriel's finger,but there is no association with the mirror (or at least I didn't see it that way).

 

[Camille]

Good after the super market theory

You say it yourself. The Mirror is just a plain basin of water. And it is magic.

Ok ok I have to be not so lazy and look for the quote form the letters of JRRT, I promise I will have them this afternoon. the mirrow is magic but just in the eyes of the hobbits, men and dwarves, but for the elves it is not magic, Galadriel do not undestood this word and the elves that gave the food and everything to the Fellowship when they leave Lorien also did not understand it, for them is the work of their very own hands and they have an hability beyond the knowledge of the other races.
That is why I said that the mirror is an arthefact.

Pontifex

Sauron. I think that she suspects that Frodo saw the Eye, or perhaps she saw the Eye in the Mirror as well.

the telepatic theory is not so good , Elu Thingol, have posted some that seams very logical to me about the mirrow working independly from Galadriel's mind, but maybe she saw or knew what frodo saw because she suspect it or because she could read minds, remeber the first time the Fellowship met Galadriel? she somehow read in their minds.

 

[aragil]

RD y Camille- You two are stealing my thunder on Mirror-Palantir comparisons. Oh well, here is a teaser related to the telepathic communications of Galadriel, with or without the Mirror (don't forget also the telepathic conversation between Gandalf, Celeborn, Galadriel, and Elrond towards the end of Many Partings:

From The Palantiri:

"Two persons, each using a Stone 'in accord' with the other, could converse, but not by sound, which the Stones did not transmit. Looking one at the other they would exchange 'thought' --not their full or true thought, or their intentions, but 'silent speech,' the thoughts they wished to transmit (already fromalized in linguistic form in their minds or actually spoken aloud), which would be received by their respondents and of course immediately transformed into 'speech,' and only reportable as such."

 

[Camille]

Sorry Aragil, I did not mean to steal nothing from you
but I am not sure the mirrow works similar to the palantiri.

 

[aragil]

No se use nada del doble negativo en ingles. Tee-hee. But the Mirror-Palantir comparison is coming- the above quote was just a teaser!

 

[Camille]

No se use nada del doble negativo en ingles. Tee-hee. But the Mirror-Palantir comparison is coming- the above quote was just a teaser!

Good! Aja! de la lengua de Cervantes...

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Rumil
You say it yourself. The Mirror is just a plain basin of water

I never said that! Read the whole post please.

Posted by Rumil
If it is the subconcious of the watcher that selects the images, it is obvious that the images shown seem unbidden to the watcher. My theory is, let me remind you, that out of the vast selection of things that could be seen through Galadriel's eyes, the watcher subconciously chooses which are of interest to him. And that fits perfectly with all the quotes you objected.

The subconcious chooses the images, hmmmmmmm....
I´m afraid that is incorrect for this reason

What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell

It doesn´t say subconcious or mind it says MIRROR. The mirror is selecting the images! Any other questions??????

 

[Camille]

Ok here is the quote From a letter of JRRT to Milton Waldman, 1951, Tolkien talks about the motives on his work:

"...Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, an the Machine.... It may become possesive, clinging to the things made as its own, the sub-creator wishes to be lord and god of his private creation. he will rebel against the laws of the creator-especially against mortality. both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire of power, for making the will more quickly effective, - ans so and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of developments of the inherent inner powers or talents- or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised.
I have not used "magic" consistently, and indeed the Elven Queen Galadriel is obliged to remostrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the elves. But the elves are there to demostrate the difference. Their magic is art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product and vision in unflawed correspondence)"

 

[Rúmil]

Very good quote Camille.
From which we can gather that Galadriel does not use a machine, ergo the Mirror is not an artefact. The obvious alternative is that the Mirror works off the mind of Galadriel.

Elu, to answer you: 1/ Don't you read only part of my post either

2/ And as for the subconcious being the chooser: the way the mirror works is by allowing the subconcious to choose from the images at the watcher's disposal. Ergo, "leave the Mirror free to work" means "leave the Mirror allow your subconcious to choose from the images available"

Does this sound twisted?

 

[Camille]

thanks and very good for you too :

...and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of developments of the inherent inner powers or talents-

apparatus? is not the same as mechanism? or my dictionary have to be wrong!

From which we can gather that Galadriel does not use a machine,

Where did you get that?

 

[Rúmil]

The "Machine" in Tolkien's frame of mind, is an evil word. Only Evil characters use Machines.

But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power

Galadriel does not use a Machine, she uses "magic", the power of her mind.

But anyway, this is out of place: we must distinguish "conjuring" magic, which these quotes are about, magic that is meant to produce a lasting and visible artefact, and "telepathy". IMO, the Mirror is an example of Telepathy; it is only a support for the magic to operate. It's like the screen of a cinema; the place where everything happens, all the technical thingies, are in the projector, not in the screen. The screen is just a detail; so is the Mirror. Without Galadriel, the Mirror has no power in itself, just as the screen is useless without the projector, to continue on with my lame comparison.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Rúmil
IMO, the Mirror is an example of Telepathy; it is only a support for the magic to operate. It's like the screen of a cinema; the place where everything happens, all the technical thingies, are in the projector, not in the screen. The screen is just a detail; so is the Mirror. Without Galadriel, the Mirror has no power in itself, just as the screen is useless without the projector, to continue on with my lame comparison.

Exactly.This is a very plausible theory Rumil.No Galadriel,no magic mirror.

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Rúmil
The "Machine" in Tolkien's frame of mind, is an evil word. Only Evil characters use Machines. Galadriel does not use a Machine, she uses "magic", the power of her mind.

I can't agree here. The Three Rings were machines in the sense that Tolkien speaks of, IMHO...

 

[Rúmil]

The Three are an ambiguous case. They were made by Celebrimbor, profiting from the teaching of Sauron, and while the Smiths of Eregion were still under the spell of Sauron. They were made with good intention, but as they were truly Machines, this led to an ambiguous result: the work the Rings achieved was neither good nor bad, it had both aspects.

But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change: as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favourite chapter. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from art), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair. The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure.

Galadriel uses her Ring to preserve Lórien, but if Ring-making came back into fashion at the end of the Third Age she would take no part in it. That particular Machine is an exception.

 

[Tyaronumen]

No, I don't think that Galadriel's particular ring was an exception. Nor that the Three themselves were necessarily 'exceptions'... much that the elves wrought, such as the Palantiri, etc. were 'machines' in the sense that Tolkien uses the word in...

While Tolkien himself may have had a somewhat negative connotation in mind when HE used 'machine', that does not mean that all (or even the majority) of 'machines' in his world were bad.

The main problem I see with 'machines' is that it is often possible to take a very good one and put it to a very evil use (the various rings, the Palantirs, etc.)

Just a different perspective. Other than on this particular point, I agree with everything you've posted so far, pretty much.