The Nazgûl: mortal or immortal

Arvedui · Aug 12, 2005

OK.
Last things first: It was never said that the Witch-king could not be killed by a man. This is the correct statement, as said by Glorfindel to Eärnur after the destruction of Angmar:

Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.

From Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, Gondor and the heirs of Anárion.

This was mere forsight, not a curse or a doom. Therefore it is wrong to say that he was unkillable by man.

Concerning the blades of Westernessë:
As Greenwood so kindly provided the quote, I would say that all the information one might need, can be found there.
The blade was forged in Arnor (not Númenor), with the specific purpose of being able to break the spell of the Ring that once had enslaved the Witch-king to Sauron, and in the process given him unnaturally long life.
The people of Arnor seemed to have known perfectly well what they were up against, and it is even stated specifically that the blade was forged "when the Dúnedain were young," so that I guess that it is perfectly safe to suppose that they still retained a lot of the skills and knowledge of the Númenóreans at the time.

It wouldn't matter much who wielded the blade. It was the blade itself that was crucial to the destruction of the Witch-king, not the wielder.

To sum it up:
- Glorfindel "saw" that somewhere in the future, the Witch-king would be destroyed.
- Someone in Arnor made a blade with the specific purpose of being able to brake the spell that kept the W-K alive.
- Somewhere along the way, that blade ended in the barrow-downs.
- Merry got it from Tom B.
- Merry broke the spell with the blade, making the Witch-king subject to wounds and hurt from ordinary weapons (and every other object).
- Éowyn killed the Witch-king.

Ingwë · Aug 12, 2005

Arvedui said:
- Someone in Arnor made a blade with the specific purpose of being able to brake the spell that kept the W-K alive.

Let me see... That blade was made with specific purpose but can someone else kill the Witch King without that blade? I think that no one can kill him. But then the Nazgûl have specific kind of immortality. They are immortal till the One Ring forged by Sauron exist or other magic power broke spell that kept the Witch King alive (but that spell is the Power of the One Ring).

baragund · Aug 12, 2005

Here's a thought that might have people scratching their heads...

If the Barrow Downs blade broke the spell that kept the Witch King alive, would he not start to revert to his 'natural' state? That is, his body would age to however many hundreds or thousands of years old? Think of how Bilbo aged after he passed the One Ring to Frodo, now multiply that effect on the Witch King by, say, a factor of one hundred.

One could suppose that after Merry's blow, the Witch King would have died of old age. Perhaps Eowyn's coupe de grace was not necessary.

(btw, Welcome to the neighborhood Borzagnazgork I think you'll find folks here to be mellow, friendly and most willing to share insight on all things Tolkien.)

Ingwë · Aug 12, 2005

baragund said:
One could suppose that after Merry's blow, the Witch King would have died of old age. Perhaps Eowyn's coupe de grace was not necessary.

You really made me scratching my head.
Maybe the Witch King really didn't need Eowyn's help to die but he also had his Ring. Does breaking the spell mean breking the power of his own Ring. But here comes the question where are the Rings of the Nine. They carry them or they are hold by Sauron? But are the powers of the Witch-King's Ring and the One Ring related. I mean what happens if something (the blade) brake the power of one of the Rings. and we must answer the question which Ring gives the power of immortality to the Witch-king. I think that the One Ring gives him the immortality.
Then thread is interesting... So there is a case in which that blade didn't broke W-K's immortality...

baragund · Aug 12, 2005

Ingwe, my impression is that the Nazgul got their power (longevity, strength, ruthlessness, ability to strike fear into others, etc.) from each of the Nine Rings that were given to them by Sauron. To maintain that power, their Rings must be worn.

Based on the quotes provided above by Greenwood and Eledhwen, the Barrow Downs blade had the ability to break the part of the Witch King's Ring's power that gave him longevity. With that spell broken, the Witch King would have shriveled up like a raisin and died. Eowyn's blow simply hastened his end. Another interesting thing to consider is whether the Barrow Downs blade broke the power of the Witch King's Ring itself, or only that Ring's effect on the Witch King. I mean, after Eowyn put the finishing touch on the Witch King, could his Ring have been left in the dirt, fully functioning, waiting for some poor slob to pick it up, put it on and become the newest Nazgul?

I believe that the Nazgul's Rings each had powers of their own but they were all ruled (controlled) by the One. That's why the remaining eight Nazgul were not affected by the Witch King's demise. To kill them, you would have to a) stab them with another Barrow Downs blade, b) somehow destroy their own Rings or c) destroy the One.

Thorondor_ · Aug 12, 2005

To maintain that power, their Rings must be worn.

Then this would imply that the wraiths have managed to rescue their rings from the waters of the Ford, after they were drowned.

Greenwood · Aug 12, 2005

baragund said:
Ingwe, my impression is that the Nazgul got their power (longevity, strength, ruthlessness, ability to strike fear into others, etc.) from each of the Nine Rings that were given to them by Sauron. To maintain that power, their Rings must be worn.
.
.
.
I mean, after Eowyn put the finishing touch on the Witch King, could his Ring have been left in the dirt, fully functioning, waiting for some poor slob to pick it up, put it on and become the newest Nazgul?

I will have to dig out the actual quote tonight, but Tolkien wrote that Sauron held the Nine Rings himself. The Nazgul no longer wore them.

Thorondor_ · Aug 12, 2005

I will have to dig out the actual quote tonight, but Tolkien wrote that Sauron held the Nine Rings himself. The Nazgul no longer wore them.

Hm, it may be that there is an inconsistency in Lotr; at the council of Elrond Gandalf says: (emphasis added):
"Some, Galdor, said Gandalf, would think the tidings of Gloin, and the pursuit of Frodo, proof enough that the halfling's trove is a thing of great worth to the Enemy. Yet it is a ring. What then? The nine the nazgul keep. The seven are taken or destroyed."
However, Galadriel says:
"You saw the Eye of him that holds the seven and the nine"

baragund · Aug 12, 2005

The term "held" could be interpreted as a) in physical possession or b) exerting control or dominion.

If it is a), then it becomes a difficult stretch to understand how Sauron could keep control over the nine Black Numenoreans who were given their Rings. One would have to get into some kind of long-distance telepathic (for want of a better term) control by Sauron over their minds and bodies. It becomes more plausible if it is b) because the very instruments of control are placed on their fingers so that creates a physical (sort of) link between the Nine and their master.

Clear as mud?

Thorondor_ · Aug 12, 2005

Well, we also have this quote from UT, The hunt for the ring:
"At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held"

Greenwood · Aug 12, 2005

OK, I have now had a chance to look at my copy of Tolkien's Letters. In Letter #246 Tolkien discusses what might have happened at Orodruin if Gollum hadn't been there. He discusses a scenario where Frodo faces the Nazgul sent by Sauron after Frodo claims the Ring for himself. Tolkien writes:

Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?

Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand -- laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.

So we have a direct statement from Tolkien that Sauron held the nine rings of the Nazgul; in keeping with Galadriel's statement tha Thorondor quoted above.

Thorondor_ · Aug 13, 2005

There is one more quote from The hunt for the ring, UT, which sustains this idea (emphasis added):

They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master

Ingwë · Aug 13, 2005

baragund said:
To kill them, you would have to a) stab them with another Barrow Downs blade, b) somehow destroy their own Rings or c) destroy the One.

So we come to a conclusion that the Nazgûl were immortal and their immortality was given by the One Ring. They cannot destroy the Nine Rings because they are hold by Sauron.

Greenwood · Aug 13, 2005

I think far too much is made of that brief passage about Merry's blade after the destruction of the Witch King. Interpretations often placed on it ignore the many other relevant passages in LOTR. Let's look at all the relevant passages Tolkien wrote in LOTR. Presented chronologically there are the following: (Discussion will follow in the next post.)

Earnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall!" Those words many remembered; but Earnur was angry, desiring only to be avenged for his disgrace. [Appendix A, ROTK]

"Old knives are long enough as swords for hobbit-people," he said. "Sharp blades are good to have, if Shire-folk go walking, east, south, or far away into dark and danger." Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dum in the Land of Angmar. [Bombadil giving the blades to the hobbits in "Fog on the Barrow-downs" in FOTR]

"Look!" he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. "This was the stroke of Frodo's sword," he said. "The only hurt it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth." [Aragorn to the hobbites on Weathertop in "Flight to the Ford" in FOTR]

"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair," said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, "you shall have neither the Ring nor me!"
Then the leader, who was now half way across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart laboring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon the shore. [Frodo confronting the Witch King and the Nazgul at the Ford of Bruinen in "Flight to the Ford" in FOTR]

A sword rang as it was drawn. "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may"
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest, It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."
The winged ceature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt. [Eowyn confronting the Witch King in "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" in ROTK]

The face of their enemy was not turned towards him, but still he hardly dared to move, dreading lest the deadly eyes should fall on him. Slowly, slowly he began to crawl aside; but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him, heeded him no more than a worm in the road. [Merry watching the encounter between Eowyn and the Witch-king in "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" in ROTK]

But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.
"Eowyn! Eowyn!" cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world. [The destruction of the Witch King in "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" in ROTK]

And still Meriadoc the hobbit stood there blinking through his tears, and no one spoke to him, indeed none seemed to heed him. He brushed away the tears and stooped to pick up the green shield that Eowyn had given him, and he slung it at his back. Then he looked for his sword that he had let fall; for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand. And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed.
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will. [Merry after the destruction of the Witch King in "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" in ROTK]

But Aragorn came to Eowyn, and he said: "Here there is a greivous hurt and a heavy blow. The arm that was broken has been tended with skill, and it will mend in time, if she has the strength to live. It is the shield-arm that is maimed; but the chief evil comes through the sword-arm. In that there now seems no life, although it is unbroken." [Aragorn tending Eowyn in "The Houses of Healing" in ROTK]

"Do not be afraid," said Aragorn. "I came in time, and I have called him back. He is weary now, and grieved, and he has taken a hurt like the Lady Eowyn, daring to smite that deadly thing." [Aragorn speaking to Pippin about Merry in "The Houses of Healing" in ROTK]

For her shield-arm was broken by the mace of the Witch-king, but he was brought to nothing, and thus the words of Glorfindel long before to King Earnur were fulfilled, that the Witch-king would not fall by the hand of man. For it is said in the sings of the Mark that in this deed Eowyn had the aid of Theoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a Halfling out of a far country, though Eomer gave hime honour in the Mark and the name of Holdwine. [Footnote about Eowyn in Appendix A of ROTK]

Discussion in next post.

Greenwood · Aug 13, 2005

Now let's look at the passages presented in the previous post. Starting with Glorfindel restraining Earnur, it is clear, nothing is said about no one being able to kill the Witch-king. Glorfindel is merely predicting that when the Witch-king is finally destroyed, it will not be a man that does the deed. Next we have Bombadil giving the blades from the barrow to the hobbits and we first hear of Angmar and its evil king.

The encounter on Weathertop is important in interpreting the possibe significance of the passage about Merry's blade at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. This is where we are told that all blades are destroyed that "pierce that dreadful King". It is also important to note that Aragorn makes no special note of Frodo's sword (which like Merry's came from the barrow). Aragorn is a Ranger of the North, heir to the throne of the North Kingdom, as well as Gondor. If these blades had some special power to kill Nazgul isn't reasonable to assume Aragorn would have recognized them and mentioned it? Why wouldn't Aragorn say: "What a pity Frodo didn't succeed in stabbing him because this special blade would have destroyed him!" (Or at least severely injured the Witch-king, "breaking the spell". etc. etc.) Why wouldn't Aragorn tell all the hobbits, "Keep those blades handy! They are your only weapon against the Nazgul!" Additionally, if these blades are so deadly to the Nazgul, why don't the Nazgul recognize them and fear them? The Nazgul show no particular fear of these blades at Weathertop or the Fords of Bruinen. [Added in edit: Just as Aragorn does not tell the hobbits that there is anything special about their swords from the barrow, neither does Gandalf or Elrond. Wouldn't they, two of the wisest in all of Middle Earth, be aware of the special deadlinesss of these blades, if they were especially deadly to the Witch-king? The hobbits are setting off for Mordor, quite likely with Nazgul eventually in pursuit; wouldn't Gandalf and Elrond tell the hobbits that their swords were potentially deadly to the Witch-King?]

Now, look at the all important encounter on the Fields of Pelennor. We find the Witch-king has evidently believed his own press about no man being able to stop him, but when Eowyn reveals she is not a man, but a woman, the Witch-king is momentarily stopped in his tracks by doubt. I picture him thinking to himself: "Whoa! Have I been misinterpreting that old fool Glorfindel's words for all these years? Am I in danger here?" I have not included the entire passage above but the Witch-king only moves on Eowyn after Eowyn kills his winged steed.

Now we get to the crucial moments. Merry stabs the Witch-king behind the knee and he cries out in "bitter pain". Eowyn uses this moment of distraction to strike. The Witch-king has not been destroyed by Merry's stab in his knee. He is still in front of Eowyn, his crown on his head above his mantle and his "shoulders bowed before her". And when Eowyn stabs the Witch-king, her sword is destroyed, just as Aragorn said any blade would be that pierced the Witch-king! If the Witch-king were already killed by Merry or Merry's wound had turned him into a mere man, why was Eowyn's sword destroyed? This certainly is not normal when a mere man is stabbed. Also, the wail of the Witch-king as he dies occurs after Eowyn stabs him, not before. His crown falls away and his cloak is empty after Eowyn stabs him, not before.

I will come back to the famous passage about Merry's blade in a moment. First look at the passages in the Houses of Healing. Eowyn's shield-arm is broken from being hit by the Witch-king's mace, but that is an ordinary wound that Aragorn dismisses. Her potentially deadly hurt comes from a sword arm that stabbed the Witch-king. Once again, if Merry had truly made the Witch-king into a mere man, how would Eowyn stabbing a mere man wound her this way? In examining Merry, Aragorn says Eowyn and Merry are both suffering from the same thing and that it comes from "smiting" the Witch-king. Then we have the footnote from Appendix A which clearly states Eowyn performed the "deed" of destroying the Witch-king, with the "aid" of Merry.

Now, lets look at the famous passage about Merry's blade. It does not say Merry's stab destroyed the Witch-king. It does not say Merry's blade dealt a mortal wound; it says it dealt a "bitter" wound. Among the definitions of the word "bitter" in the dictionary are: hard to bear; grievous or causing pain. So the wound was a very painful one, not a fatal one. Look back the passage when Merry stabs the Witch-king. The Witch-king cries out in "bitter" pain. Does anyone think Tolkien's use of the same word in the two places is accidental? What Tolkien is doing here in this passage is tying everything together for his readers. He is reminding them that the Witch-king has been the foe of the men of Westernesse (both North and South Kingdoms) for thousands of years. Now, in a bit of poetic justice the Witch-king is wounded by a blade made in the North Kingdom thousands of years earlier when they fought him and this wound leads to his destruction by Eowyn, who is "not a man".

Eledhwen · Aug 14, 2005

Greenwood said:
If these blades had some special power to kill Nazgul isn't reasonable to assume Aragorn would have recognized them and mentioned it?

Aragorn commented on Frodo's mis-stab at the Witch King, which was not what saved him. Why then did the Witch King leave without the Ring? Because the name of Elbereth was deadly to him though Frodo's attack was not.

Greenwood said:
Now, lets look at the famous passage about Merry's blade. It does not say Merry's stab destroyed the Witch-king. It does not say Merry's blade dealt a mortal wound; it says it dealt a "bitter" wound.

You missed the later passage about Merry's blade, which I quoted on page 1 of this thread:- No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

This quote was not the opinion of a character in the story (and therefore fallible) but spoken by the Narrator. It states very clearly that Merry's blade undid the ability the Witch King had to prevent damage to his own body (note he has sinews, so he is not pure spirit, just invisible).

Thorondor_ · Aug 14, 2005

Just as Aragorn does not tell the hobbits that there is anything special about their swords from the barrow, neither does Gandalf

Alot of the knowledge and power of Numenor dissapeared with its fall, and not everything about it was known by Gandalf, Aragorn or Elrond. If the theory that one of descendants of Elros put a certain magic in the blade is correct, we shouldn't expect Gandalf to recognize it, since he wasn't able to recognize even the particular magic of the One ring.

Greenwood · Aug 14, 2005

Eledhwen said:
Aragorn commented on Frodo's mis-stab at the Witch King, which was not what saved him. Why then did the Witch King leave without the Ring? Because the name of Elbereth was deadly to him though Frodo's attack was not.

Aragorn had already stated why the Witch-king retreated. It is found three paragraphs before he discusses Frodo's unsuccessful stab at the Witch-king:

"I think I understand things better now," he said in a low voice. "There seem only to have been five of the enemy. Why they were not all here, I don't know; but I don't think they expected to be resisted. They have drawn off for the time being. But not far, I fear. They will come again another night, if we cannot escape. They are only waiting, because they think that their purpose is almost accomplished, and that the Ring cannot fly much further. I fear, Sam, that they believe your master has a deadly wound that will subdue him to their will.
["Flight to the Ford", FOTR; emphasis added]

The Witch-king withdrew becuase he had succeeded in stabbing Frodo with his Morgul blade. He thought he had now only to wait for Frodo to succumb to the wound. In the meantime, he would reunite all the Nazgul for another attack. The Witch-king showed no fear of the supposedly deadly blades from the barrow.

Eledhwen said:
You missed the later passage about Merry's blade, which I quoted on page 1 of this thread:

I did not miss that passage. It is the very passage I am primarily discussing and you will find it with all the other passages from LOTR I included in my post # 34 above.

Eledhwen said:
This quote was not the opinion of a character in the story (and therefore fallible) but spoken by the Narrator. It states very clearly that Merry's blade undid the ability the Witch King had to prevent damage to his own body (note he has sinews, so he is not pure spirit, just invisible).

1)The Narrator is ultimately Frodo (and his heir Sam and his heirs) since the book is supposed to be based on the Red Book of Westmarch. There is no infallible Narrator (within the context of the story). 2) No, the passage does not say that. It says no other blade would have dealt such a "bitter" (read painful) wound. It does not say that no other blade could have killed the Witch-king. Eowyn's clearly did. The passage must be read in context with the rest of what is written in LOTR. If the power of the Witch-king had been destroyed by Merry's blade, why was Eowyn's blade destroyed when she stabbed the Witch-king? How could she be suffering from the same malady as Merry which came from stabbing the Witch-king? If the blades from the barrow were so deadly to the Witch-king, why was this never mentioned by Aragorn, Gandalf or Elrond?

Thorondor said:
Alot of the knowledge and power of Numenor dissapeared with its fall, and not everything about it was known by Gandalf, Aragorn or Elrond. If the theory that one of descendants of Elros put a certain magic in the blade is correct, we shouldn't expect Gandalf to recognize it, since he wasn't able to recognize even the particular magic of the One ring.

The blades from the barrow have nothing to do with Numenor. They are products of Arnor in Middle Earth when Arnor fought Angmar and its Witch-king some 1500 years after the destruction of Numenor. Wild, unfounded theories about descendents of Elros making the blades are irrelevant. This is just another example of your habit of postulating some theory to suit yourself and then treating it as a fact.

As for Gandalf and the Ring, Gandalf immediately knew it was one of the Great Rings, he just did not guess it was The One Ring.

"When did I first begin to guess?" he mused, searchig back in memory. "Let me see -- it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not yet know what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was -- that at least was clear from the first."
["The Shadow of the Past", FOTR; emphasis added]

Thorondor_ · Aug 14, 2005

They are products of Arnor in Middle Earth when Arnor fought Angmar and its Witch-king some 1500 years after the destruction of Numenor

I misinterpreted the passage "so passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse"; I stand corrected.

Wild, unfounded theories about descendents of Elros making the blades are irrelevant

I disagree; chapter 1, TTT, emphasis added: "They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor"

Arvedui · Aug 15, 2005

Ingwë said:
So we come to a conclusion that the Nazgûl were immortal and their immortality was given by the One Ring. They cannot destroy the Nine Rings because they are hold by Sauron.

No, we do not come to any such conclution, even if perhaps you do.
Men are not immortal, not even Elves are immortal in the true meaning of the word immortal, although their spirits do not die.
But as I have stated before: no Ring can change the destiny of any "race." Only Eru could have changed the fate of the Black Númenóreans. And I don't think he did.

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