The Nazgûl: mortal or immortal

[Ingwë]

The Nazgûl are the Nine servants of the Dark lord Sauron. They possess the Nine Rings of the Mortal men doomed to die . They were mortal men but what happened when they got the Nine Rings? Did they become immortal or they didn't? Are they immortal?

[I decided to start this thread after the debate 'Who 'killed' the Witch King? ' ]

 

[Greenwood]

Gandalf in "The Shadow of the Past" in FOTR:

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisble permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later -- later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last -- sooner or later the dark power will devour him."

They do not die while they are under the control of the Rings, but they are not immortal in the same sense as the elves are immortal.

 

[Ingwë]

I think as you or you think as me I and Arvedui debated in the thread 'Who killed the Witch king?'

The Nazgûl were mortal: they were Men, after all.
(Is that clear? )

I hope I will se him in this thread

And I said:

But they have Rings of Power and they don't die. Without the Rings (and perhaps the One Ring) they are mortal, but we have Rings

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Didnt it say somewhere that they are neither living nor dead? Maybe they dont even exist, they are just spirits of the corrupted men?

 

[Maeglin]

Yes, Aragorn does tell Frodo and the others at Bree that they are neither living nor dead, but that they were indeed men once. I think the best explanation is that they are men that have simply faded, as Gandalf described could happen to a mortal. So I suppose they are just spirits, if that is what one is reduced to after fading.

 

[Arvedui]

The Nazgûl were Men, and thus they were mortal.
Only the Valar could change the fate of the Children of Eru. And I guess that they would need the consent of Eru as well.

I believe that this is a case that borders on the problems related to the origin of Orcs: Morgoth could not have created the Orcs, because he did not have the power to give them independant life. Thus, Sauron could not have changed the fate of the Black Númenóreans.

IMO....

 

[Ingwë]

I think that they are immortal till the Ring exists. We know that Aragorn tried to fight them but he cannot.
As Greenwood mentioned, "A mortal, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die. I think he doesn't die till the One exists. They disappeared after the destroying the One Ring. The Ring gives them the Power.

 

[Greenwood]

The Nazgûl were Men, and thus they were mortal.
Only the Valar could change the fate of the Children of Eru. And I guess that they would need the consent of Eru as well.

The Valar cannot change the fate of Elves or Men! From Tolkien's letter #131:

The doom or gift of God, of mortality, the gods of course cannot abrogate, but the Numenoreans have agreat span of life.

From letter #153:

Ommortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conceptions and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: The cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of theor descendents was a direct act of God.

From letter #156:

There they became the Numeroreans, the Kings of Men. They were given a triple span of life -- but not elvish 'immortality' (which is not eternal, but measured by their duration in time of Earth); for the point of view of this mythology is that 'mortality' or a short span, and 'immortality' or an indefinite span was part of what we might call the biological and spiritual nature of the Children of God, Men and Elves (the firstborn) respectively, and would not be altered by the One, except perhaps by one of those strange exceptions to all rulkes and ordinances which seem to crop up in the history of the Universe, and show the Finger of God, as the one wholly free Will and Agent.

From letter #325:

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time -- whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them.

If the Valar cannot make mortals into immortals, then certainly Sauron and his Ring could not!

 

[Hammersmith]

It depends what "mortal" and "immortal" mean. The elves are not truly immortal in the sense that they could be killed or die in certain ways, though they did not succumb to age. We know that the Wraiths could be killed by something as simple as a piece of cold steel, and the "no man born of a woman" malarky was not so much a "can't be" as a "won't be" in my mind. I don't think we'd ever see a Ringwraith in a zimmer frame, but they were only as immortal as the elves were.

 

[Arvedui]

The Valar cannot change the fate of Elves or Men!

I know. I was just being a little careless when typing.
I could say that it won't happen again, but I guess it will.

It depends what "mortal" and "immortal" mean. The elves are not truly immortal in the sense that they could be killed or die in certain ways, though they did not succumb to age.

The correct word is Longevity, not immortality when it comes to the Firstborn.

 

[Ingwë]

Let we use the books...

Down like lashing whips fell a torrent of black rain. And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgúl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.

They went out after the destroying the One Ring. They were no more. They aren't immortal as the Elves but they are immortal while the One Ring exists.

 

[Eledhwen]

AT THE END OF THE BATTLE OF THE PELENNOR FIELDS
"And still Meriadoc the hobbit stood there blinking through his tears, and no one spoke to him, indeed none seemed to heed him. He brushed away the tears and stooped to pick up the green shield that Eowyn had given him, and he slung it at his back. Then he looked for his sword that he had let fall; for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand. And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed.


So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

Only a knife like Merry's could have undone the spell that allowed the witch king to command his body to remain whole. Once that spell was broken, the witch king's mortality was laid bare to Eowyn's attack.

 

[Greenwood]

I know. I was just being a little careless when typing.
I could say that it won't happen again, but I guess it will.

Arvedui,

Forgive me if I came across a bit too strong. I am aware from your past posts that you are quite knowledgeable in matters of Tolkien.

 

[Arvedui]

Don't worry, I did not find your reply strong in any way.
I think that it is fair that such mistakes are corrected, especially on this matter, as I believe it to be of crucial importance when it comes to understanding the questions concerning the topic of this thread, and also the origin of Orcs.

I am aware from your past posts that you are quite knowledgeable in matters of Tolkien.

Not nearly enough, my firend. Not nearly enough.

 

[Ingwë]

Only a knife like Merry's could have undone the spell that allowed the witch king to command his body to remain whole. Once that spell was broken, the witch king's mortality was laid bare to Eowyn's attack.

So you say that the Witch King was immortal till Merry undone the spell that allowed the witch king to command his body to remain whole?

 

[Hammersmith]

So you say that the Witch King was immortal till Merry undone the spell that allowed the witch king to command his body to remain whole?

An interesting premise. If that were so, what was so significant about an old elven dagger?

 

[Thorondor_]

I don't think it's an elven dagger; after Tom gives the daggers to the hobbits: "he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse". In the Silmarillion, Eonwe gave the numenoreans wisdom and power, and we also learn there that "the Dunedain became mighty in crafts, so that if they had had the mind they could easily have surpassed the evil kings of Middle-earth in the making of war and the forging of weapons" - so it could be just the craft of the numenoreans that made this blade so powerful.

However, the next quote, from the same chapter 8, could imply some sort of magic of (some of) the numenoreans: "whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun". ("Pure") humans (i.e. who aren't related by blood to the elves, such as Aragorn) don't have magic abilities; but the descendants of Elros do have some remnants of the elven magic, so maybe it is one of them who was involved in making the dagger magical.

 

[Hammersmith]

Okay, firstly I confused myself between the Gondolin-forged Sting and the weapons of the other hobbits. Sorry .

But surely any spell laid on the mound would be of an evil origin designed to protect all of the mound's treasure, rather than only the swords?

I think I may have gotten us off track. Basically, the question hinges largely on whether it was specifically Merry and/or his use of the dagger of Westernesse that caused the Witch King's mortality, or whether the King was naturally subject to injury and death, though immune to age and disease like the elves' longevity.

I can't see that quote regarding hypothetical spells as relating too much to the daggers themselves, but rather to the entire hoard. Even if it were as you say, other than establishing a precedent of magic over the weapon, what good would it do Merry, a spell of preservation against a wraith?

 

[Eledhwen]

So you say that the Witch King was immortal till Merry undone the spell that allowed the witch king to command his body to remain whole?

There were two known 'achilles heels' when it came to Nazgul immortality. One was the destruction of the One Ring, which they believed would never happen; the other was the power of the making spells in the blades of Westernesse. I would surmise that the Nazgul were either unaware of the power in the knives, or thought them all long destroyed.

I think that if the Ring had endured and been returned to Sauron, then the Nazgul would have continued to exist as appendages to his power.

 

[Borzagnazgork]

You know, i have been pondering about the same thing myself. I am leaning towards their immortality being the same or similar to the elves in that they can just die of old age but can if someone kills them.

Another point that cannot be overlooked is that after a certain amount of time their bodies dissipated until only their spirits survived. This is why at weathertop when Frodo put on the ring he saw them in a shadowy white form, their true spiritual form. So is it really possible to kill a spirit?

Yet another important point that i noticed was when Eowen killed the Witchking of Agmar. How did she kill him if he cannot be killed. Obviously there is some sort of affect on merry when he stabs him. Well, like all things in the realms of fantasy and epic stories, all the character adhere to prophesy. The prophesy of the witchking was that he could be killed by no man. There is a glich in that because he indeed was not killed by a man but a woman.

Thats about all i wish to add on to this...feel free to elaborate more on what i wrote.