The Never Asked Question

Melian Le Fay · Sep 29, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Thank you, Maedhros!
As for my "Palantiri"-question - I meant how TOLKIEN had come up to the idea of these devices if they were definitely out of his time and seem a bit out of OUR time even. What? Did he have a "time-machine", or...?
As for the towns, I suspected about Rome, Babylon and the ancient Troya, but what about Ninwi - which ancient town would this be?
Any ideas?... Besides, I think that the events in ME as described, happened LONG BEFORE the existance of Babylon, Troya and Rome(!).
Strange, Ah?

I think Ninwi is named after the city of Niniwa in ancient Maesopotamia (just like Babylon)....
It is interesting to think that that the events in ME happened long time before "our history"... but the men in LOTR and Sil, etc. look like they're from Medieval age...that, and the level of their technology... And Medieval age was AFTER our ancient history, so...
I think tolkien only "used" these parts of our history as something to write after... I don't think he ment to put the events chronologically before our "known" history...
But i thought like you, too... that he explained how the Elves and Dwarves and Hobbits dissapeared... That's a "Romantic" thought...

Melian Le Fay · Sep 29, 2002

Grond,

I have a Q related to the Debate between Maedros and Gothmog... I havent read everything yet, though I find it very interesting, since this same question bothered me for a while.... In ROTK, Tolkien refers to Elladan and Elrohir as "two men"... What's your opinion on this?
Of course, this question is for everyone!
p.s. How was your holiday? Any photos....?

Grond · Sep 29, 2002

Please don't cite something from the book as a quote and not provide the quote. I don't doubt that it refers to them as "two men" but need you to point it out to me. (In other words, I'm too lazy to look it up.)

Melian Le Fay · Sep 29, 2002

hmm...itsy-bitsy problem : my book isn't in English. I can try to translate it, but...
But my Q wasn't so important, I was just thinking about that debate, and how Tolkien names them men.

gate7ole · Oct 1, 2002

I read in HOME IV that after the War of Wrath, only two of Morgoth’s dragons escaped from the destruction of Thangorodrim. But then, we read that during the TA, the Ered Mithrin (Grey Mountains) were infested by cold-drakes and the dwarves were driven to the Iron Hills. And we have two individual dragons in the stories (Scatha and Smaug).
Is this number of 2 only surviving dragons an inconsistence of Tolkien’s work, or did I miss something and there were other dragon (e.g bred by Sauron)?

Lhunithiliel · Oct 18, 2002

Fate7ole, what shall we do? NOBODY is responding to our questions!

And here is another on my part:

Isildur was always blamed that for his pride and ambitions he did not cast the Ring into fire to destroy and that he wanted it for himself.
But here what I've found:

Elendur went to his father, who was standing dark and alone, as if lost in thought. "Atarinya," he said, "what of the power that would cow these foul creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail?"
"Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. 23 And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."

"My King," said Elendur, "Ciryon is dead and Aratan is dying. Your last counsellor must advise nay command you, as you commanded Ohtar. Go! Take your burden, and at all costs bring it to the Keepers: even at the cost of abandoning your men and me!"

Which shows that Isildur went from Osgilliath not just to his kingdom, but through the most direct possible way- to Rivendale in order to leave the Ring with the High Elves!

If there is no answer here, then I'll probably open a thread.

Ponte · Oct 20, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

Which shows that Isildur went from Osgilliath not just to his kingdom, but through the most direct possible way- to Rivendale in order to leave the Ring with the High Elves!

Isildur went to Rivendell since his wife and youngest son where there and since he was in need of the counsels of Elrond.

Grond · Oct 20, 2002

Lhun, please be so kind as to cite the source of your quote on Elendur and Isildur. I have not run across it or if I did, it did not register. That is one of the most telling bits of information I've seen in years and casts in doubt other writings of the author that speak of no Man willingly giving up the One when once obtained. There is only one example of anyone ever giving up the One voluntarily and that was Bilbo... and Gandalf almost had to force him to leave it.

Ponte · Oct 20, 2002

That quote is from UT, the disaster of the Gladden fields if I'm not misstaken.

Yepp, it's page 273-74.

Lhunithiliel · Oct 20, 2002

Originally posted by Buu
That quote is from UT, the disaster of the Gladden fields if I'm not misstaken.

Yepp, it's page 273-74.

That's right. It is as Buu says.
Then, Buu, why do you seem surprised?

As I have lost hope that someone would ever see my question here, I opened a thread on the same topic. And the discussion has already started! If you prefer, you may join us there:
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6809
/Did I do the link?/

Ponte · Oct 20, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
That's right. It is as Buu says.
Then, Buu, why do you seem surprised?

What do you mean about me being surprised?

Lhunithiliel · Oct 21, 2002

Originally posted by Buu
Isildur went to Rivendell since his wife and youngest son where there and since he was in need of the counsels of Elrond.

What do you think he need the counsels of Elrond for?
Besides, the whole story the above quote comes out from gives "food" for thought over Isildur's fault for having not destroyed the ring.

Ponte · Oct 21, 2002

I have started to realize what you're saying now.

Lhunithiliel · Oct 21, 2002

Since I made a separate thread out of my last question, I would like to ask for a piece of advice for sth. new.
Where can I find MORE detailed information about Aragorn's people - the Dunedains?

Lhunithiliel · Oct 23, 2002

Oh, Plelase! Don't even bother to answer!
I have allready found what I was looking for.

Walter · Oct 23, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Oh, Plelase! Don't even bother to answer!
I have allready found what I was looking for.

Patience is a virtue, they say...

There you go: LotR, Sil, UT, HoMe

But earnestly, it's not quite clear what you mean with MORE information, from your other threads (Aldarion, Isildur) I gather you have thoroughly read the tales concerning Númenoreans in the UT and most probably the Akallabêth in the Sil as well. The Appendices (esp. App A) of LotR are another good source, and of course the HoMe- series (Mainly HoMeV The Lost Road...Part One and HomeXII The History of the Akallabeth ) contain a lot more about the Dúnedain...

...oh and there are also a few pages in the TolkienWiki

P.S.: Sing.: Adan, Pl.:Edain...Sing.: Dúnadan, Pl.: Dúnedain

Lhunithiliel · Oct 23, 2002

Please, laugh not, dear Walter, but I did not know that the Dunedains were = the men from the West = the Numenoreans!

Thank you very much for your help, though!
You know, I can't understand how to work with the Wili site!
Can you please PM me?
Thanks!
Lhun

Lhunithiliel · Oct 24, 2002

I was strongly wondering on where to post this question.
Finally, I decided it IS a "never asked question" and its place belongs in this thread.
Here is the QUESTION:

Taking into consideration that Melkor had often gone "out into the Void" and that AFTER he had returned he rebelled, then
What do you think, Melkor saw in the Void that provoked this specific music?

Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies that had been heard at first foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon the other in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged

Maybe this quote is not the most appropriate..... but I am sure all of us know quite a lot about how Melkor's music sounded.
So, what do you thin?
WHAT had he seen out there?

gate7ole · Oct 24, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
WHAT had he seen out there?

I think that is simple. Nothing. The void was empty. There was no light, since the light of face of Iluvatar was not covering the dark places that Melkor visited. It is a possible reason for Melkor's change. Being too long in the dark, he conceived dark thoughts. Also, seeing the emptiness of the Void, he imagined creating life that would fill all this void. He started seeing himself as a God, dominated his creations.
Some times, seeing nothing is more dangerous than seeing something.

Lhunithiliel · Oct 25, 2002

So, what you're saying is that "emptiness" created Melkor's tune.
I was thinking..... the "Void" - could we understand it as the Universe, or Space... at least I do so. But the Universe is the "workshop" for the creation of worlds. He could not but NOT see those processes - how a star is born out of gas and flames (I'm neither astronomer nor a physicist!)... So, I thought that the "rough" process of creation of new worlds is what Melkor saw in the Void and this sight is far from the picture of a heavanly paradise-looking place. Maybe this is why his music lacked finnesse and harmony...

......it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated, and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.

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