The Never Asked Question

Lhunithiliel · Jun 30, 2003

Hahaha!
No, Findi! It's not by M.M.!
It is one of the best works IMHO written by Tolkien himself!!!
Great stuff, dedicated to the fate of Elves and Men!
What was your e-mail?
I'll send it to you.

Eriol · Sep 28, 2003

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
From "The Lost Road", "The Fall of Numenor"

Can someone give me a hint to what this could mean - the extract highlighted in red?

I think it is based on the Cosmology Tolkien used at the time, when the Lands were floating over the big ocean where Ulmo dwelt (called "Vai" then). There was a connection, a physical connection, between the Outer Sea (where "the springs of the waters" were located, especially since the lands floated upon Vai) and the outer Airs (Vaitya -- notice the similarity in the words).

Check the "Earth as a viking ship" map at BOLT 1.

I found a quote from C.T. to support that:

It might seem a plausible idea that there was some connection (physical as well as etymological) between Vai and Vaitya, the outermost of the Three Airs, 'wrapped dark and sluggish around the world and without it'

BOLT 1.

So, my own opinion is that the "sundering of the springs from the stars" means that the earth was made round, and therefore the springs -- the Outer Sea -- became out of touch with Vaitya. It was completely surrounded by Vilna (the First Air, without stars) afterwards.

Gil-Galad · Oct 3, 2003

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Hahaha!
No, Findi! It's not by M.M.!
It is one of the best works IMHO written by Tolkien himself!!!
Great stuff, dedicated to the fate of Elves and Men!
What was your e-mail?
I'll send it to you.

I would very much like to send it to me too...........

jallan · Oct 4, 2003

Eriol posted:

So, my own opinion is that the "sundering of the springs from the stars" means that the earth was made round, and therefore the springs -- the Outer Sea -- became out of touch with Vaitya. It was completely surrounded by Vilna (the First Air, without stars) afterwards.

Quite so.

Mythologies often imagine waters of heaven and waters of the underworld with a flat earth between them (and sometimes imagine the two bodies of water to be connected or to have been originally connected).

Compare the separation of the waters in Genesis.

In may places if you dig deep you eventually find water. In some places water gushes out of the ground as a srping. So you know there is water down there somewhere. You also know that water sometimes comes from the sky.

So it is easy to conceive of a heavenly abyss of water and a subterranean abyss of water.

Tolkien’s early mythology and his flat world cosmos descriptions are all variations on this mythological conception.

That kind of imagery disappears when you imagine a globular world of rock floating in emptiness with earth and water on the outside.

Lhunithiliel · Oct 5, 2003

From BoLT1:

Know then that water was for the most part the dream and invention of Ulmo, an Ainu whom Ilúvatar had instructed deeper than all others in the depths of music; while the air and winds and the ethers of the firmament had Manwë Súlimo devised, greatest and most noble of the Ainur. The earth and most of its goodly substances did Aulë contrive, whom Ilúvatar had taught many things of wisdom scarce less than Melko, yet was there much therein that was nought of his.

It seems Tolkien accentuates the water-element from the early stages of his concept of the mythology he wished to create.

But in the light of what you guys, Eri and jallan (THANK YOU! ) commented on and after reading these comments carefully , another thing is that came to "torture" my mind!

Say, if in the early stages of his mythology Tolkien depicted the world flat between waters, or as a ship (his drawing in BoLT1), then how to understand the forllowing:

From BoLT1; The Music of the Ainur:

Then the Ainur marvelled to see how the world was globed amid the void and yet separated from it; and they rejoiced to see light, and found it was both white and golden, and they laughed for the pleasure of colours, and for the great roaring of the ocean they were filled with longing. Their hearts were glad because of air and the winds, and the matters whereof the Earth was made -- iron and stone and silver and gold and many substances: but of all these water was held the fairest and most goodly and most greatly praised. Indeed there liveth still in water a deeper echo of The Music of the Ainur than in any substance else that is in the world, and at this latest day many of the Sons of Men will hearken unsatedly to the voice of the Sea and long for they know not what.

A GLOBED world!!!!

Yet even in the stories that come closely next in that same book, we read about Walls surrounding the world, waters under it ...etc. It becomes clear that at that time Tolkien had accepted the idea of the flat -shaped world.

Then what about that quote above?

jallan · Oct 6, 2003

The world is globed within the void, separated from it by Vaitya.

The upper half of the globe contains Ilwë where the stars dwell and Vilna ‘Air’. The lower half contains earth and water. Naturally the earth is more or less flat on its upper surface.

So we have a flat earth within a globed world.

In the diagram that appears later in the text the world is seen to be elliptical rather than circular when viewed from above. But possibly we are to understand that elliptical shape to be set within a circular sea.

The map is very sketchy.

Perhaps more likelyTolkien had just changed his mind as he so often did.

But of course observers on our earth have always seen, especially at night, the dome of the sky above the apparently flat earth and have tended to imagine a similar opposite counterpart to the dome beneath the earth.

Heaven above has its counterpart in Hades beneath the earth.

Earth may be flat but the night sky shows that the world is very three-dimensional.

Lhunithiliel · Oct 9, 2003

Well... I see...
And reading about it all in the Silmarillion (which however lacks quite a lot of details on this matter ), it becomes obvious that this structure of Arda - flat Earth placed within a globe of substance (above more like air, beneath more like water) was kept by the author.

Within this subject, there is sth. else that puzzled me:

BoLT1: Ilinsor was jealous of the supremacy of the Sun, and he bade the starry mariners flee before him and the constellate lamps go out, but many would not, and often he set sail in chase of them, and the little ships of Varda fled before the huntsman of the firmament, and were not caught.

The highlighted part I've seen used in other sections too. If I'm not wrong, it is to be understood that the stars and the Moon were in the second of the three layers around the Earth, namely - in Ilmen (Ilwë as per BoLT1). Right? ... I think so, because we read :

“…blue and clear and flows among the stars” ...

Yet... those three were layers of a substance (whatever it might be) that however could be in no way firm = solid.

Why then Ilinsor "chased the stars in the firmament" ?

Or is there some other meaning = understanding of this particular word?

aragil · Oct 9, 2003

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Why then Ilinsor "chased the stars in the firmament" ?

Or is there some other meaning = understanding of this particular word?

I think so.

from Merriam-Webster (www.webster.com)
firmament: 1 : the vault or arch of the sky : HEAVENS

On a related cosmological note, what do you all think of Tolkien's later explanation of his cosmos, which agrees (more or less) with what we know in a scientific sense about our own universe?

from Morgoth's Ring, Athrobeth Finrod ah Andreth, author's note 2
Arda, or 'The Kingdom of Arda' (as being directly under the kingship of Eru's vice-gerent Manwe) is not easy to translate, since neither 'earth' nor 'world' are entirely suitable. Physically Arda was what we should call the Solar System.(11) Presumably the Eldar could have had as much and as accurate information concerning this, its structure, origin, and its relation to the rest of Ea (the Universe) as they could comprehend. Probably those who were interested did acquire this knowledge. Not all the Eldar were interested in everything; most of them concentrated their attention on (or as they said 'were in love with') the Earth.
The traditions here referred to have come down from the Eldar of the First Age, through Elves who never were directly acquainted with the Valar, and through Men who received 'lore' from the Elves, but who had myths and cosmogonic legends, and astronomical guesses, of their own. There is, however, nothing in them that seriously conflicts with present human notions of the Solar System, and its size and position relative to the Universe. It must be remembered, however, that it does not necessarily follow that 'True Information' concerning Arda (such as the ancient Eldar might have received from the Valar) must agree with Men's present theories. Also, the Eldar (and the Valar) were not overwhelmed or even principally impressed by notions of size and distance. Their interest, certainly the interest of the Silmarillion and all related matter, may be termed 'dramatic'. Places or worlds were interesting or important because of what happened in them.
It is certainly the case with the Elvish traditions that the principal part of Arda was the Earth (Imbar 'The Habitation'),(12) as the scene of the Drama of the war of the Valar and the Children of Eru with Melkor: so that loosely used Arda often seems to mean the Earth: and that from this point of view the function of the Solar System was to make possible the existence of Imbar.
With regard to the relation of Arda to Ea, the assertion that the principal demiurgic Ainur (the Valar), including the originally greatest of all, Melkor, had taken up their 'residence' in Arda,(13) ever since its establishment, also implies that however minute Arda was dramatically the chief point in Ea.
These views are not mathematical or astronomical, or even biological, and so cannot be held necessarily to conflict with the theories of our physical sciences. We cannot say that there 'must' be elsewhere in Ea other solar systems 'like' Arda, still less that, if there are, they or any one of them must contain a parallel to Imbar. We cannot even say that these things are mathematically very 'likely'. But even if the presence elsewhere in Ea of biological 'life' was demonstrable, it would not invalidate the Elvish view that Arda (at least while it endures) is the dramatic centre. The demonstration that there existed elsewhere Incarnates, parallel to the Children of Eru, would of course modify the picture, though not wholly invalidate it. The Elvish answer would probably be: 'Well, that is another Tale. It is not our Tale. Eru can no doubt bring to pass more than one.
Not everything is adumbrated in the Ainulindale'; or the Ainulindale' may have a wider reference than we knew: other dramas, like in kind if different in process and result, may have gone on in Ea, or may yet go on.' But they would certainly add: 'But they are not going on now. The drama of Arda is the present concern of Ea.' Actually it is plainly the view of the Elvish tradition that the Drama of Arda is unique. We cannot at present assert that this is untrue.
The Elves were of course primarily and deeply (more deeply than Men) concerned with Arda, and Imbar in particular. They appear to have held that the physical universe, Ea, had a beginning and would have an end: that it was limited and finite in all dimensions. They certainly held that all things or 'makings', that is constructed (however simply and incipiently) from basic matter, which they called erma,(14) were impermanent, within Ea. They were therefore much concerned with 'The End of Arda'. They knew themselves to be limited by Arda; but the length of its existence they do not seem to have known. Possibly the Valar did not know. More probably, they were not informed by the will or design of Eru, who appears in the Elvish tradition to demand two things from His Children (of either Kindred): belief in Him, and proceeding from that, hope or trust in Him (called by the Eldar estel).
But in any case, whether adumbrated in the Music or not, the End could be brought about by Eru at any time by intervention, so that it could not be certainly foreseen. (A minor and as it were foreshadowing intervention of this sort was the catastrophe in which Numenor was obliterated, and the physical residence of the Valar in Imbar was ended.) The Elvish conception of the End was in fact catastrophic. They did not think that Arda (or at any rate Imbar) would just run down into lifeless inanition. But this conception was not embodied by them in any myth or legend. See Note 7.

Lhunithiliel · Nov 4, 2003

I hope someone with far broader knowledge on Tolkien might comment on the quote that you provided, aragil.

Meanwhile ... recently I was looking again at one of the numerous pictures of the One Ring and the inscription on it... Beautiful letters (some Elvish if I'm not mistaken) ... foul language though - that should not be uttered in the free lands (interpreting what Gandlaf said).
Now ... as Sauron was the forger of the Ring, it could be assumed that he was the one to put that inscription, and assuming further on... could we say that that was a language he spoke?

So, my question is:

What language did Sauron speak?

I remember reading sth. about the Valar who learned the language of the Elves for the convenience of easier communication with them. But that could not be the language the inscription on the Ring was made in.

So, I wondered...

Could someone comment on this?

Beleg · Nov 4, 2003

Now ... as Sauron was the forger of the Ring, it could be assumed that he was the one to put that inscription, and assuming further on... could we say that that was a language he spoke?

So, my question is:

What language did Sauron speak?

The inscription on the Ring is in Black Speech.

It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he had desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose. From the Black Speech, however, were derived many of the words that were in the Third Age wide-spread among the Orcs, such as ghash 'fire', but after the first overthrow of Sauron the language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgul. When Sauron arose again, it became once more the language of Brad-dur and of the captains of Mordor. The Inscription on the Ring was in the ancient Black Speech, while the curse of the Mordor-orc on II, p. 47 was in the more debased form used by the soldiers of the Dark Tower, of whom Grishnakh was the captain. Sharku in that tongue means old man

Here is a useful article containing a Black Speech wordlist.

Another, more technical article

Valar had a speech, Lambe Valarinwa it was called. It is reasonable to suppose that Sauron was aware of this Lambe.

Sauron apparantly also knew Sindarin and Quenya, otherwise he couldn't have communicated with the elvish realm of Eregion during the second age.
Due to his proximity with the mannish tribes, he would also know the local mannish speeches.

Lhunithiliel · Nov 4, 2003

Thanks! Very helpful, indeed!

Morgoth · Nov 13, 2003

This is something i've been pondering over for quite some time, and is beginning to frustrate me. What is acutally in the very far east of Middle Earth? Tolkien tells of everything west of Mordor to the Halls Of Manwe, but while the Middle Earth geography is very precise, everywhere else is extrodinarily vague. So surely, Mr Tolkien, having and extrodinary eye for detail, would have made some kind of detailing of the other lands. So, does anyone know any of the geography for them? Just a thought.

Shaky_the_Mohel · Nov 26, 2003

I'm going to commit a cardinal sin here and cite a non-Tolkien source: Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth. Therefore I am eager to stand corrected by anyone familiar with HoME or The Silmarillion (not my specialties).

It doesn't appear--and I'm assuming you're talking about the Third Age here--that Tolkien had a lot to say about the far east of Middle-earth. We know that in the upheavals at the end of the First Age, the great inland Sea of Helcar disappeared; Mordor and the Sea of Rhun were created in the process. Cuivienen--the bay of Helcar where the Elves awoke--disappeared with it. Fonstad's Atlas doesn't give any details of what eastern Middle-earth looked like in the Third Age, so it is reasonable to assume that very little in this region was altered in the Change of the World (the Downfall of Numenor).

In the First Age the northernmost reaches of Middle-earth were spanned by the gigantic Iron Mountains. From the Grinding Ice in the west, these ranges spread far into the east. In the Years of the Sun they were intersected by three lesser mountain ranges: from west to east, the Blue Mountains, the Misty Mountains, and the Orocarni. Cuivienen and the Wild Wood lay at the feet of the easternmost of these mountain-chains; Hildorien, the land where Men first awoke, lay somewhere to the south.

The Great Sea of Helcar which spanned the region of Middle-earth between Greenwood the Great (Mirkwood) and the Orocarni was drained when Beleriand sank beneath the waves. According to Fonstad's Second Age map, while much of the Iron Mountains disappeared at this time, the Orocarni were spared--and remained the major feature of the far east of Middle-earth. The draining of Helcar opened up wide expanses of land east of Rhun which would become home to the many Easterling peoples. It is possible (but again I stand corrected) that in addition to the many Men in the Eastlands, Avari (Dark Elves) and some of the Dwarves of other Houses also dwelt here. There was probably an eastern coast of Middle-earth.

Beyond that, there is little more I can say about the far east of Middle-earth (my apologies). I should remind you, though, of what Frodo saw when he gazed eastward on the Hill of Seeing: "wide uncharted lands, nameless plains, and forests unexplored."

Morgoth · Nov 28, 2003

Thank you, I have now set it upon myself to track down that book you mentioned. Any other offers?

Shaky_the_Mohel · Dec 2, 2003

Further to Morgoth's queries regarding lesser-known elements of Middle-earth geography, I have a question to throw to the panel:

Was the forest of Eryn Vorn still inhabited at the end of the Third Age--and if not, what happened to its folk?

Gil-Galad · Dec 2, 2003

Very good question Shaky ,OMG where are my books I have some work with them

Morgoth · Dec 9, 2003

Shaky, I have yet to consult any edition of HoME (as i dont own them. yet. roll on christmas ) but i could not find any reference to whether the forest was inhabited in any appendix of LoTR. But, when I get my hands on HoME, I may be able to tell you. Watch this space.

Morgoth · Dec 9, 2003

Well, ive spent a little bit of time searching the internet, and i found out the following from http://www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of-arda/Places-index/Places-ME/Lond-Daer.htm
If you read through it, it mentions that the people of Eryn Vorn were forced out of their original lands by the Numenoreans, and fled to Eryn Vorn. However, give me a little while before I can say for certain whether they were still there at the end of the 3rd age

Morgoth · Dec 9, 2003

Ok, sorry about my constant posting everyone, but I've been working my little Dark Lord socks off for 40 minutes trying to find a suitable answer, and it was right under my nose, on the Tolkien Wiki website. Read the following, Shaky, it's about as conclusive as I could find, and only offers guesses to what happened. Good question, by the way, you've aleviated my post-mock exam boredom. http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?ErynVorn
By the way, I've become quite interested in these more unknown aspects of Tolkien geography, and will probably set up a thread in the Noldorin Forge within a few days dedicated to it. I'd be glad to have some of your Tolkien expertise on it, Shaky. Thank You and Goodnight.

Lhunithiliel · Dec 10, 2003

LOL Morgoth, I didn't know you were visiting the TW!!!
I am glad, though!

And it's good to point out to that entry...but ...you know... it was Shaky himself who is its author!

Ah, Shaky!!!!!!! Trickyyyyyyyyyy!!!

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