The Never Asked Question

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you very much for your time and willingness to answer my never-stopped Q-s!

What you say....Yes, there is a lot of truth ... now that I have also read a marvellous essay by M.Martinez, concerning the War of Wrath. There he really talks about these processes and historical events in North-Western Europe that might have actually inspired a lot of the events in Tolkien's imaginary world.

However, interesting it is, don't you think, how people from different parts perceive this imaginary world!
Walter - living in Western Europe - have in mind the history of this part of the world; he has in mind Beowulf, and the Saxons, and the Germanic tribes, and the Hunes...

Beleg - the far East (well, not the var, far one! ) - the Mongols

me - Southern Europe = the "crossroad" of civilizations, hence thinking of very many different cultures and peoples back in the depths of the history of the real world and projecting them into the imaginary world of Tolkien; knowing the Eastern civilizations...
I still see the Rohirrims as a mixture of Slavs outlook and Proto-Bulgarians military and social arrangement...

 

[Walter]

Ummm....ermmmm...Lhun: Huns=Mongols...

So, actually, I was referring to Beleg's statement as well and trying to line out the "bigger picture" (or at least one of the possibilities thereof)...

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Yes, Walter, I know that

I was only saying that you take into consideration those wars... as you say in a larger picture of the events that were that important part of the western-European history, that in fact "moulded" the Europe you live in.

My people was moulded by the invasion of Mongolian tribes - the Proto-Bulgarians, too. And the customs they had in war, and they LIVED for war, were ....Boy! These were cruel people!
I think you might find it interesting to learn of how one of our khans punished HIS people for violation of the rules:
If someone, f.ex., stole, they cut off his arm! And this he did to HIS men! Imagine what they did to the enemies!

You know, it is surprising how the physical appearance that they used to have is still strongly observed in our lands!True!
As our people was once formed out of the union of those dark-Mongoloids and the fair and pale Slavs, this has given as a result a people of individuals mostly dark-haired, dark-eyed, but NOT "squat, broad, flat-nosed sallow skinned with wide mouths and slant eyes." . In bodily form our nation has mostly preserved genes from the Slavs. It's amazing how the features of those two initial peoples have been preserved through the ages of history....
In my family, for example, we joke that me and my Mom are descendents of the Proto-Bulgarians, while my father and brotehr - of the Slavs

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Here is sth. on the subject.

Brrrrr!!!!!

horror

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

I think we would find if we researched, that Tolkien's "standard of ugliness" for his orcs, goblins, trolls etc. are rather all pervasive within the race of man as are his standards of beauty. Leaving aside skin color (and the orcs were not actually "human" in this regard) there is a standard of beauty and ugliness that pervades all human cultures. Stunted, crooked, deformed bodies are in no human culture a desirous situation. Anthropoid facial features (heavy brow ridge, small close-set eyes, large mouths with large crooked sharp teeth) do not appear in any human culture as desirous either. And, of course, Tolkien chooses darker skins for his folk of the east and/or south since that would be recognizeable to Europeans as the more exotic peoples of the Middle East who were known for their ferocity whether during the crusades or as Barbary pirates (also known as "Corsairs").

On the other hand, tall, straight bodies and faces with fine features, bright fairly large eyes well set in the head, good teeth and all those other things we have come to view and presented by Tolkien in LOTR and Silmarillion as "beauty" is not limited to Europe. African and Asian cultures find these same body and facial types to correspond to their concept of pleasing with, of course, the exception of skin color. None of this is racist, merely human as it appears that we as a species possess certain ingrained understandings of what constitutes both beauty and ugliness.

I don't think that anyone should "take offense" at Tolkien's descriptions of either his villains or his heroes and just accept the books as what they are: the telling of a great myth.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
I don't think that anyone should "take offense" at Tolkien's descriptions of either his villains or his heroes and just accept the books as what they are: the telling of a great myth.

Oh! But I don't think anybody here is offended! It's just a small exchange of information based on my never ceasing questions!
You ARE quite right about the commonly accepted "criteria" for human "beauty" or "ugliness".
*******

(in a very very small voice): May I ask another Q?....

Oh! I will...

How was the "Common speech" of ME formed?
As far as I know, the languages of the Elves who never departed from ME were actually the widely spoken in Beleriand. But the "invasion" of Men was strong and I suspect that their languages also had influence..... Though.... to think of it... Men's speech was formed under the strong influence of the language of the Dark Elves - the first talking creatures Men met after their awakening....
So? Does it result that the "Common speech" of ME is in fact a variation of the ancient Quenya?
Then what about the race of the Dwarves? Their language was, I guess, not formed by the elves...

Opinions? Knowledge? Reccommendations?

 

[jallan]

Tolkien’s remark about Orkish appearance was:

They are or were squat, broad, flat-nosed sallow skinned with wide mouths and slant eyes in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol types.

These remarks suggest the popular image of Huns, as has been indicated previously.

A very common source for information on Huns would be Gibbon's The Decdlin and Fall of the Roman Empire. From Chapter XXXIV:

Attila, the son of Mundzuk, deduced his noble, perhaps his regal, descent from the ancient Huns, who had formerly contended with the monarchs of China. His features, according to the observation of a Gothic historian, bore the stamp of his national origin; and the portrait of Attila exhibits the genuine deformity of a modern Calmuck; a large head, a swarthy complexion, small deep-seated eyes, a flat nose, a few hairs in the place of a beard, broad shoulders, and a short square body, of nervous strength, though of a disproportioned form. The haughty step and demeanour of the king of the Huns expressed the consciousness of his superiority above the rest of mankind; and he had a custom of fiercely rolling his eyes, as if he wished to enjoy the terror which he inspired.

We here have a description which matches very closely Tolkien's, and the assertion that there are extant modern Mongols of the same kind, the “modern Calmuck”.

Where does this information about modern types come from?

Newman Reader - History of the Turks - Lecture 2::

Tavernier, the French traveller, in the seventeenth century, gives us a similar description of the Kalmuks, some of whom at present are included in the Russian Empire. "They are robust men," he says [Note 2], "but the most ugly and deformed under heaven; a face so flat and broad, that from one eye to the other is a space of five or six fingers. Their eyes are very small, the nose so flat that two small nostrils is the whole of it; their knees turned out, and their feet turned in."

Note 2" Voyages, t. i. p. 456.

This vivid description appears to have been generally repeated. From Buffon: Buffon: Of the Varieties of the Human Species:

We are informed by Tavernier, that the Calmucks, who live in the neighbourhood of the Caspian Sea, between Muscovy and Great Tartary, are robust men, but the most ugly and deformed beings under Heaven. Their faces are so large and so flat, that their eyes, which are generally small, are situated five or six inches asunder [sic]. Their noses are so low, that, instead of nostrils, two holes are only to be seen; and their knees bend outward, and their legs inward. After the Calmucks, the Tartars of Daghestan hold the next rank in deformity. The Little Tartars, or those of Nogai, who live near the Black sea,are not so ugly as the Calmucks, though they have flat faces, and small eyes, and resemble the Calmucks in their general figure. By their intercourse with the Circasians, the Moldavians, and other adjoining nations, this race of Tartars have perhaps lost a part of their original deformity. The Tartars of Siberia, though, like the Calmucks, they have broad faces, short flat noses, and small eyes, and though their language be very different, there is still so great a similarity between them, that they ought to be regarded as the same race of people. The Tartars of Bratski are considered by Père Avril as of the same race with the Calmucks; and, in proportion as we advance eastward, and approach Independent Tartary, the features of the Tartars gradually soften; but the characters essential to their race are never obliterated.

From 'The "Eucharist of Hell'; or, Eating People is Right: Romantic Representations of Cannibalism":

The eighteenth-century natural historian Buffon accounted for human variety in terms of a process which he called degeneration and which he described as occurring through the influence of climate and environment. Humanity was originally white with European features but it degenerated into various other races. The most influential theorist of race in the period, J. F. Blumenbach, following Buffon, argued that human variety resulted from this process of 'degeneration', evidenced not just by skin colour but also by the totality of human anatomy, especially the shape of the skull. Blumenbach argued in 1775 in his treatise On the Natural Variety of Mankind that the originary race of human beings were white and beautiful and that all present varieties descended from these, with the European or Caucasian as the least degenerate and the Ethiopian and Mongolian or Calmuck as the most degenerate.

From “On the relations of man to the lower animals” by Thomas H. Huxley:

Draw a line on a globe from the Gold Coast in Western Africa to the steppes of Tartary. At the southern and western end of that line there live the most dolichocephalic, prognathous, curly-haired, darkskinned of men--the true Negroes. At the northern and eastern end of the same line there live the most brachycephalic, orthognathous, straight-haired, yellow-skinned of men--the Tartars and Calmucks. The two ends of this imaginary line are indeed, so to speak, ethnological antipodes. A line drawn at right angles, or nearly so, to this polar line through Europe and Southern Asia to Hindostan, would give us a sort of equator, around which round-headed, ovalheaded, and oblong-headed, prognathous and orthognathous, fair and dark races--but none possessing the excessively marked characters of Calmuck or Negro--group themselves.

But Huxley makes no mention of deformation, and we don’t seem to hear much about these supposedly deformed Calmuks today.

A look at pictures at The Kalmyk American Society - Pictures or Kalmykia, Russia or Kalmykian site of Anna Prohorova - Pictures seems to indicate the deformed Kalmuks don’t exist, and presumably never did; or at least that Kalmuks are no more likely to be deformed in the manner indicated by Tavernier in his ethnic slur than any other people.

 

[gate7ole]

Common Language
I summarize here what I read about the origins of the Common Tongue from the Appentices of Lotr and the Lhammas (HOME V)

The original language of Men was greatly influenced by the tongue of the Avari (which was itself influenced by a Valarin dialect). Also, the dwarvish (!) language played some important role in the creation of the early speech of Men. When the Three Houses of the Fathers of Men passed Beleriand, their speech was greatly influenced by the language of the Green-Elves (affected by the Sindarin dialect of Thingol). Furthermore, with their concourse with the Noldorin princes, their language was enriched with the pure Sindarin. This was the speech that the Atani brought to Númenor, which was named Adûnaic.
From there, the Adûnaic was enriched with the Quenya language taught to them by the Elves of Tol Eressëa.
So far we have the scheme:

Avarin ………….Dwarvish
…|_______________|
………….|
…….Original Speech………Of Green-Elves…….Sindarin
………….|__________________|_______________|
………………………………|
…………………….(early) Adûnaic…………..Quenya
……………………………..|_________________|
………………………………………..|
……………………………………..Adûnaic
Now, this language was brought to ME during the days where Númenor was travelling and establishing ports (Umbar, Pelargir…). Also, when the realms of exile were founded (Arnor, Gondor), Elendil and his followers brought the language to ME. From then, it mingled with several Mannish dialects, and created the Common Tongue, a language adopted by almost every people of ME (except the Elves and the Púkel-Men)


PS. Sorry for the dotes at the scheme, it doesn't show multiple spaces

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Very interesting observation!
Thanks, Gate!
And the chart is marvelous!

And here is what I remembered to have read in the FOTR:

It was in these early days, doubtless, that the Hobbits learned their letters and began to write after the manner of the Dúnedain, who had in their turn long before learned the art from the Elves. And in those days also they forgot whatever languages they had used before, and spoke ever after the Common Speech, the Westron as it was named, that was current through all the lands of the kings from Arnor to Gondor, and about all the coasts of the Sea from Belfalas to Lune.

So, one could sum up:

original Elvish >> Quenya >> variations (Avari-dialects) >> Sindarin + Noldorin Quenya + original Men's language (they did have their own words!) + Dwarvish + the commonly used "mixed" (but more Sindarin) Elvish of Beleriand >> Numenorean = Westron

Right?

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Welllll, don't I feel at home in this thread!


I have a question (How surprising!)

Is there any place in the "reference"-books where one can get an idea of the age of Feanor's sons?

To explain :
I have noticed the "boys" as if observe some seniority respect among each other... so I wondered... how old could be each of them?

 

[Luthien Tunivel]

I have a question, and allthough it might have been answered somewhere else here, I don't have time to read the whole thread!

No answers this: what does the J.R.R. in Tolkien's name stand for?

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Luthien Tunivel
I have a question, and allthough it might have been answered somewhere else here, I don't have time to read the whole thread!

No answers this: what does the J.R.R. in Tolkien's name stand for?

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien - he preferred to be called Ronald rather than John. Clive Staples Lewis preferred to be called Jack, but whereas Ronald was part of Tolkien's name, Lewis' name did not contain John of which Jack is a nickname.

From a letter to Amy Ronald, January 2, 1969:

"Now, my dear, as to my name. It is John: a name much used and loved by Christians, and since I was born on the Octave of St. John the Evangelist, I take him as my patron - though neither my father, nor may mother at the time, would have thought of anything so Romish as giving me a name because it was a saint's. I was called John because it was the custom for the eldest son of the eldest son to be called John in my family. My father was Aurthur, eldest of my grandfather John Benjamin's second family; but his elder half-broth John had died leaving only 3 daughters. So John I had to be, and was dandled on the knee of old J.B., as the heir, before he died....

My father favored John Benjamin Reuel (which I should now have liked); but my mother was confident that I should be a duaghter, and being fond of more 'romantic' (& less O[ld] T[estament] like) names decided on Rosalind. When I turned up premature, and a boy though weak and ailing, Ronald was substituted. It was then a much rarer name in England as a Christian name - I never in fact knew any of my contemporaries at achool or Oxford who had the name - though it seems now alas! to be prevalent among the criminal and other degraded classes. Anyway I have always treated it with respect, and from earliest days refused to allow it to be abbreviated or tagged with. But for myself I remained John. Ronald was for my near kin. My friends at school, Oxford and later have called me John (or occasionally John Ronald or J. Rsquared)....

Of course there is always Reuel. This was (I believe) the surname of a friend of my grandfather. The family believed it to be French (which is formally possible); but if so it is an odd chance that it appears twice in the O[ld] T[estament] as an unexplained other name for Jethro Moses' father-in-law. All my children, and my children's children, and their children, have the name." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien - Letter # 309)

I hope that this helps.

 

[Luthien Tunivel]

Wow, that definately helped!

 

[Lhunithiliel]

From "The Lost Road", "The Fall of Numenor"

...Thus also the heavy air flowed round all the earth and in that time, above the waters; and the springs of all waters were cut off from the stars.

Can someone give me a hint to what this could mean - the extract highlighted in red?

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
From "The Lost Road", "The Fall of Numenor"

Can someone give me a hint to what this could mean - the extract highlighted in red?

I of course, may be wrong, but it would seem to me that if the particular quote is fixed at the time Numenor was overwhemed by the sea, then that was also the time that the seas were "sundered" and the Blessed Realm was removed from the physical earth so that it could no longer be reached by ship from the moral lands. That is, the waters of the earth - the seas and oceans - were cut off from the stars of the Blessed Realm.

 

[Lantarion]

I think that's right.
But it seems to me like it might mean that the stars themselves were hidden, i.e. they were no longer reflected in the springs and waters of Númenor.
[But that's not my actual opinion, just an observation ]

 

[ely]

50% elf

It's good I found this nice thread, otherwise I would have started a new one and I think that I've already posted too many new threads.

I'm really sorry if these never asked questions turn out to be already asked questions, so if this happens I hope you can forgive me...


And now the questions:

1. Why was Elrond called Half - Elf? (you have to admit that in this situation Half - Elve sounds much better ) I mean he was an elf, his parents were elves, who cares if his brother was not. He was asked to choose to be either an elf or a man and he chose to be an elf, so he became an elf, an 100% elf. So why was he called Half - Elve?

2. If I'm 50% elf and 50% man, am I immortal or not? What about 80% elf and 20% man (if that's possible at all)? Or 99.9% elf and 0.1% man?

 

[Anamatar IV]

Re: 50% elf

Originally posted by ely


1. Why was Elrond called Half - Elf? (you have to admit that in this situation Half - Elve sounds much better ) I mean he was an elf, his parents were elves, who cares if his brother was not. He was asked to choose to be either an elf or a man and he chose to be an elf, so he became an elf, an 100% elf. So why was he called Half - Elve?

Earendil was technically a man when Elrond was born so that would make Elrond half-Elven.

2. If I'm 50% elf and 50% man, am I immortal or not? What about 80% elf and 20% man (if that's possible at all)? Or 99.9% elf and 0.1% man?

http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7806&highlight=halfelves <--This thread answers that question.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Re: 50% elf

Originally posted by ely
1. Why was Elrond called Half - Elf? (you have to admit that in this situation Half - Elve sounds much better ) I mean he was an elf, his parents were elves, who cares if his brother was not. He was asked to choose to be either an elf or a man and he chose to be an elf, so he became an elf, an 100% elf. So why was he called Half - Elve?

Look at me, folks! I am going to answer a question, not ask!!!! Well...welll.....welll !!!!

Anyway... Ely, Elrond and Elros were called Half-Elves because their mother was more an Elf and their father - more a Man.

In fact, these two brothers should have been called 1/4 Elves. Right?

2. If I'm 50% elf and 50% man, am I immortal or not? What about 80% elf and 20% man (if that's possible at all)? Or 99.9% elf and 0.1% man?

It does not matter how much Elf or Man you are. Immortality was given only to the race of Elves. Any exceptions made for some representative from the race of Men were just this - exceptions - as in the case of Tuor, Earendil.... Hmmmm not many Men had been graced with this gift.
But if you are interested in these matters, you should read a wonderful essay called Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (I hope spelling is OK ). The Silmarillion itself too gives quite much information on this matter too... but the HoMe-series are the best source.

I hope this helped.

 

[Finduilas]

Hmm...this essay don't tell me it's by Michael Martinez..?!!!
Anyway, where can I find to read it?
Gosh,I know so little...man,I have to pull myself together and study more...!