The 🧌Orcs by JRR. Tolkien

[Elages]

Aiya!

I've read once Morgoth's Ring; so, I've read too the text about Orcs (I think GL 03). Do you think this text is trustful? Because the 'language' Tolkien uses is hypothetic, and it makes us uncertain about the veracity of the text. What do you think about?

And don't you forget that this text isn't the one... Most of these texts are hypothetic.

Cuio vae, Mellyn!

 

[Confusticated]

I think it can be trusted to tell us what JRRT thought.

 

[Grond]

One must understand that Tolkien was having a heck of a time reconciling his earlier writings as hard questions began to be asked of him by his fans. Some of these questions concerning orcs are as follows:

1) If orcs were derived from Elves... were they immortal?
2) If orcs were derived from Elves... would their souls return to the Halls of Mandos upon death?
3) If orcs were dervied from Elves... was all of their innate goodness completely gone or were their vestiges of goodness still within them?

Questions such as these made the author rethink his original origins of orcs as being captured and corrupted Eldar. Since Melkor could not create, only corrupt... the only other logical solution was to tie their origins to Man. He was in the process of doing this in the writings which are now in "Morgoth's Ring" but never finished hashing it out. Tying orcs to men had its own contradictions and pitfalls. I think in the end, he let the matter be as age and ill health kept him from fully finishing that which we all love.

Cheers,

grond

 

[Snaga]

Since Tolkien doesn't reconcile all the published facts, and is aware of the difficulties, I don't think that there is any obligation to accept his later writings on the origins of orcs as anything more than speculation. It leaves us with all the room we need for our own speculation!

 

[Grond]

Snaga,

The argument is circular. Whether the writings were early or late, how can we as readers, know what the author's true intent was. Using your logic, the Silmarillion Proper should have simply been the published works of the Book of Lost Tales Parts 1 and 2.

My point is not what is right or wrong but that we can't really know what the final form the author would have chosen had he lived another fifty years to work it all out.

Any definitive statement about a myriad of subjects (origin of orcs being one) is impossible, because, while we know where the author is coming from, we don't know where he would have ultimately ended up.

 

[Confusticated]

I agree with Snaga and think he gives Aule an excellent answer. The only thing Orcs tells us are JRRTs thoughts on the matter. Speculative thoughts at that. Thoughts and ideas, not final decision, or conclusion nor even all of his thoughts but simply thoughts. We can use his own ideas to decide what we like to imagine. If for example he says Eru would not give spirits to any creatures that are not ultimately redeemable, I will take that into heavy consideration, had he said otherwise I would do the same.


I mean Snaga here (the ol nutter ) doesn't seem to have claimed what you seem to be arguing against.

 

[Grond]

I agree with Snaga and think he gives Aule an excellent answer. The only thing Orcs tells us are JRRTs thoughts on the matter. Speculative thoughts at that. Thoughts and ideas, not final decision, or conclusion nor even all of his thoughts but simply thoughts. We can use his own ideas to decide what we like to imagine. If for example he says Eru would not give spirits to any creatures that are not ultimately redeemable, I will take that into heavy consideration, had he said otherwise I would do the same.


I mean Snaga here (the ol nutter ) doesn't seem to have claimed what you seem to be arguing against.

If one concedes that the published Silmarillion's account concerning Orcs should be held in the same regard, then I totally agree. If one attributes more authority to the published Sil than to the explanation in Morogth's Ring then I vehemently disagree!

 

[baragund]

I like the notion that orcs were derived from Elves, simply because that makes for one heck of a family reunion when they all get together in the Halls of Mandos Just think about attending a big family function and having to deal with the trashy relatives from Lower Podunk, and then multiplying that experience by, oh, ten thousand or so!

 

[Confusticated]

Good one, baragund! Now I begin to wonder if Chrisopher Tolkien omitted a note where his father addressed that.

 

[baragund]

I can just see it now:

"Gil-galad, meet your 52nd cousin, 25 times removed, Gorbag."

"Azog, this is your great-great-great (17 times) aunt, Finduilas."

Ewwwww!!!