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The Blue Wizzard
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Randir, if sauron was amoung men who had never heard of the Valar, save a voice, would he say, "I am notgreater than the voice, or the Valar, or a dog that manged to nearly kill me in my own castle, BUT my mate is."
And if we look, forward, what did sauron call himself in the second age...
I think that however it could be anyone of melkor deamons, it could be melkor possesing a elf? but if the timeline is move so much, then it was before the destoring of the trees so could have been him anyway.
EDIt; 500!
And if we look, forward, what did sauron call himself in the second age...
I think that however it could be anyone of melkor deamons, it could be melkor possesing a elf? but if the timeline is move so much, then it was before the destoring of the trees so could have been him anyway.
EDIt; 500!
Yes, I think that everything indicaes that it was Melkor, and the event was placed before the war of the Valar made upon Mekor for the sake of firstborn.
EDIT: Sorry for not-really-swift answers but I am kid of busy right now, and this weekend I am setting off to Crimea for 3 weeks (so I won't be around).
EDIT: Sorry for not-really-swift answers but I am kid of busy right now, and this weekend I am setting off to Crimea for 3 weeks (so I won't be around).
Arvedui
Stargazer
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impressive, good job, any more essays in the works?
Erestor Arcamen said:
To be frank, no, that is my first essay (but I do now some good ones). I am considering writing a new essay (it depends if I had some time. I think, that I would have to go abroad to work, soa as to have some money for my studies). I was thinking about writing something like "Economics in ME" or "Necromancy and Shadow World", or any other unknown (or little known) subject). Any suggestions?
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Bergolilac
New Member
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Forgive me for being a Tolkien00b, I've only read the hobbit and seen the movies. But I've always been a fan of fantasy worlds and always seen orcs to be more of a science fiction race than part of a magical world.
When I investigate different races I think about their properties and culture rather than their history as they either represent something or they are a warped version of ourselves and it is these properties that strike interest. It is also fun to just imagine what it would be like to be or experience one of these creatures. What would happen if you captured and orc and tried to tame it? Undoubtedly it would try to trick you and escape, so you would have to capture a few orcs and breed them and indoctrinate the offspring. What would happen then? Could you turn them back into goodies, like Frodo tried with Gollum?
The sci fi "orc" has always struck interest, they represent harsh logic. A species which has evolved to industry and war much like animals evolve to their environment. Except this species is sentient and has evolved to everything that goes with being sentient, the technology and their purpose in ensuring a succesful warlike civilisation. Orc leaders are malicious megalomaniacs, but they are not corrupt as this is their purpose in life and other orcs want to be ruled by malicious megalomaniacs. Orc culture is purely functional and they see beauty as corruption and they are right, beauty is form of corruption, if you produce a space ship to look beautiful you will sacrifice it's functional properties. What's the point on spending buying a work of art when you can use it to make yourself more powerful? They do not need military discipline to deal with terrible situations, to them gaining pleasure and beauty is seeing themselves succeed in conquerring and gaining power, they do not gain power for the purpose of doing something they consider corrupt to gain pleasure. The perfect state of mind for gaining power.
The fantasy orc however doesn't seem to have a place in the fantasy world. To me they seem like gnomes or fairies, like something plucked out of nowhere with no real purpose. This is acceptable of course, a writer should be able to do this if he wants, stories don't have to be just about describing human conditions. Orcs seem to find their place in the middle earth story line purely as alter egos to the elves and perhaps so as morgoth created them by corrupting elves, as if Tolkien is serving their purpose up on a platter. Elves of course having the same philosophy as orcs, except they seem to have found their purpose (or created with that purpose ingrained) and have stopped relentlessly pursuing power like some sort of narcotic and settled down to writing poetry and such like. A pointless pursuit but perhaps not as pointless as relentlessly pursuing power with no end in sight. Though perhaps the only way to survive and gain pleasure at the same time would be to gain pleasure from gaining power. Though perhaps this erodes sentience and reduces a person's freedom to choose what to do. It's as if as a human I am torn between the choice of good vs evil!
Tolkien's storyline is litterred with contrast: elves and orcs; ents and trolls; the King of Rohan and the Steward of Gondor; Gandalf and Saruman; Aragorn and Boromir etc etc.. Each one good and each one evil.
Is this why tolkien created the orc? To define the pure extreme of evil or the pure extreme of a servant of evil?
Maybe tolkien had the definition of evil, which is to cause maximum sufferring to all sentient life. Though he probably he believed evil was the relentless and mad desire to gain power, to diminish sentience itself with obsessiveness, which is another contrast with elves, whom are always calm and more botherred with being and beauty.
What about the torturing of elves? Wouldn't that be pure evil, the supporting of sentient life, just to torture? Morgoth tortured elves and created sauron like he created orcs. Maybe Sauron is not pure evil, but a tool to relentlessly gain power, like the orcs. Sauron would probably live in a world of pain, which would be alleviated slightly whenever he gained a little power. Maybe this is why he destroyed morgoth, for revenge and to gain power. Maybe Sauron served a purpose as Gollum did!
But I digress..
What do you think?
When I investigate different races I think about their properties and culture rather than their history as they either represent something or they are a warped version of ourselves and it is these properties that strike interest. It is also fun to just imagine what it would be like to be or experience one of these creatures. What would happen if you captured and orc and tried to tame it? Undoubtedly it would try to trick you and escape, so you would have to capture a few orcs and breed them and indoctrinate the offspring. What would happen then? Could you turn them back into goodies, like Frodo tried with Gollum?
The sci fi "orc" has always struck interest, they represent harsh logic. A species which has evolved to industry and war much like animals evolve to their environment. Except this species is sentient and has evolved to everything that goes with being sentient, the technology and their purpose in ensuring a succesful warlike civilisation. Orc leaders are malicious megalomaniacs, but they are not corrupt as this is their purpose in life and other orcs want to be ruled by malicious megalomaniacs. Orc culture is purely functional and they see beauty as corruption and they are right, beauty is form of corruption, if you produce a space ship to look beautiful you will sacrifice it's functional properties. What's the point on spending buying a work of art when you can use it to make yourself more powerful? They do not need military discipline to deal with terrible situations, to them gaining pleasure and beauty is seeing themselves succeed in conquerring and gaining power, they do not gain power for the purpose of doing something they consider corrupt to gain pleasure. The perfect state of mind for gaining power.
The fantasy orc however doesn't seem to have a place in the fantasy world. To me they seem like gnomes or fairies, like something plucked out of nowhere with no real purpose. This is acceptable of course, a writer should be able to do this if he wants, stories don't have to be just about describing human conditions. Orcs seem to find their place in the middle earth story line purely as alter egos to the elves and perhaps so as morgoth created them by corrupting elves, as if Tolkien is serving their purpose up on a platter. Elves of course having the same philosophy as orcs, except they seem to have found their purpose (or created with that purpose ingrained) and have stopped relentlessly pursuing power like some sort of narcotic and settled down to writing poetry and such like. A pointless pursuit but perhaps not as pointless as relentlessly pursuing power with no end in sight. Though perhaps the only way to survive and gain pleasure at the same time would be to gain pleasure from gaining power. Though perhaps this erodes sentience and reduces a person's freedom to choose what to do. It's as if as a human I am torn between the choice of good vs evil!
Tolkien's storyline is litterred with contrast: elves and orcs; ents and trolls; the King of Rohan and the Steward of Gondor; Gandalf and Saruman; Aragorn and Boromir etc etc.. Each one good and each one evil.
Is this why tolkien created the orc? To define the pure extreme of evil or the pure extreme of a servant of evil?
Maybe tolkien had the definition of evil, which is to cause maximum sufferring to all sentient life. Though he probably he believed evil was the relentless and mad desire to gain power, to diminish sentience itself with obsessiveness, which is another contrast with elves, whom are always calm and more botherred with being and beauty.
What about the torturing of elves? Wouldn't that be pure evil, the supporting of sentient life, just to torture? Morgoth tortured elves and created sauron like he created orcs. Maybe Sauron is not pure evil, but a tool to relentlessly gain power, like the orcs. Sauron would probably live in a world of pain, which would be alleviated slightly whenever he gained a little power. Maybe this is why he destroyed morgoth, for revenge and to gain power. Maybe Sauron served a purpose as Gollum did!
But I digress..
What do you think?
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Lots of thoughts... I will answer only a few of them.
1) Sauron DID NOT destroyed Morgoth !!! He EVER was faithful to him, Sauron being his best servant.
2) Sauron is not purely evil, at least he started as a 'normal' Maiar, and then was seduced (so not against Sauron's will) by Morgoth. For that mater, Morgoth (orginally Melkor), wasn't evil at the beginings either.
3) Elves and Orcs could be look upon as an exgagerrated reresentation of contradictory human charachter traits. So they BOTH are alter egos for US.
4) I would not go as far to say that Orcs see beauty as corruption etc. I don't think that they practised any sort of conscious philosophy, besides Tolkien did not write about their such-developed views on that or similar matter. Yet, it is an interesting point of view.
5) I do not know WHY exactly Tolkien created Orcs but 1) they are present in many Nordic myths (as Goblins) 2) they were at first (in early writings) not created by mutilating Children Of Eru but in another way, so maybe (at first at least) their purpose was to be just a part of the tale, not alter egos for Men (but could be both, of course).
That's all no, it's a little bit late now to write more...
Regards
Randir
1) Sauron DID NOT destroyed Morgoth !!! He EVER was faithful to him, Sauron being his best servant.
2) Sauron is not purely evil, at least he started as a 'normal' Maiar, and then was seduced (so not against Sauron's will) by Morgoth. For that mater, Morgoth (orginally Melkor), wasn't evil at the beginings either.
3) Elves and Orcs could be look upon as an exgagerrated reresentation of contradictory human charachter traits. So they BOTH are alter egos for US.
4) I would not go as far to say that Orcs see beauty as corruption etc. I don't think that they practised any sort of conscious philosophy, besides Tolkien did not write about their such-developed views on that or similar matter. Yet, it is an interesting point of view.
5) I do not know WHY exactly Tolkien created Orcs but 1) they are present in many Nordic myths (as Goblins) 2) they were at first (in early writings) not created by mutilating Children Of Eru but in another way, so maybe (at first at least) their purpose was to be just a part of the tale, not alter egos for Men (but could be both, of course).
That's all no, it's a little bit late now to write more...
Regards
Randir
Bergolilac
New Member
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"1) Sauron DID NOT destroyed Morgoth !!! He EVER was faithful to him, Sauron being his best servant.
2) Sauron is not purely evil, at least he started as a 'normal' Maiar, and then was seduced (so not against Sauron's will) by Morgoth. For that mater, Morgoth (orginally Melkor), wasn't evil at the beginings either."
So what are the Maiar then? Are they gods beneath gods? The losers to the supreme argument for monotheism, being that there can only be one true god as only one god can make all the other "gods". This would make sense as Eru seems to be a very distant typical monotheistic watchmaker works in strange ways god, whereas the Maiar are more like the mischievous polytheistic gods who are always playing around with mortals and representing fundamental aspects of the world. If so, then turning another 2nd rate god into a 3rd rate god, then controlling that god and turning it into your slave wouldn't be out of the question. This also begs the question about free will and humans. Are elves and orcs so extreme because they serve the will of a god and are humans so malleable as they have free will and must be persuaded and cannot be controlled directly? Does Eru, the one god, represent free will? Is this some extremely important theological argument Tolkien was trying to get across? Am I getting a little far fetched?
"3) Elves and Orcs could be look upon as an exgagerrated reresentation of contradictory human charachter traits. So they BOTH are alter egos for US."
Logically, extreme opposites must be alter egos of other. You can have a largely good human, who has done bad in the past and his later ego would be evil, but that alter ego wouldn't be completely evil as the little evil the original had would be inverted to a little good. It can't be. However you are right about how elves and orcs represent contradictory human character traits, however the extremes that elves and orcs have taken these traits/philosophical laws to is impossible for humans.
"4) I would not go as far to say that Orcs see beauty as corruption etc. I don't think that they practised any sort of conscious philosophy, besides Tolkien did not write about their such-developed views on that or similar matter. Yet, it is an interesting point of view."
What about the corruption of Denethor and such?
"5) I do not know WHY exactly Tolkien created Orcs but 1) they are present in many Nordic myths (as Goblins) 2) they were at first (in early writings) not created by mutilating Children Of Eru but in another way, so maybe (at first at least) their purpose was to be just a part of the tale, not alter egos for Men (but could be both, of course)."
I believe traditional Goblins are supposed to be mischievous and warlike, I'll have to look it up. I'm used to the modern, corrupted form of orcs and goblins.
2) Sauron is not purely evil, at least he started as a 'normal' Maiar, and then was seduced (so not against Sauron's will) by Morgoth. For that mater, Morgoth (orginally Melkor), wasn't evil at the beginings either."
So what are the Maiar then? Are they gods beneath gods? The losers to the supreme argument for monotheism, being that there can only be one true god as only one god can make all the other "gods". This would make sense as Eru seems to be a very distant typical monotheistic watchmaker works in strange ways god, whereas the Maiar are more like the mischievous polytheistic gods who are always playing around with mortals and representing fundamental aspects of the world. If so, then turning another 2nd rate god into a 3rd rate god, then controlling that god and turning it into your slave wouldn't be out of the question. This also begs the question about free will and humans. Are elves and orcs so extreme because they serve the will of a god and are humans so malleable as they have free will and must be persuaded and cannot be controlled directly? Does Eru, the one god, represent free will? Is this some extremely important theological argument Tolkien was trying to get across? Am I getting a little far fetched?
"3) Elves and Orcs could be look upon as an exgagerrated reresentation of contradictory human charachter traits. So they BOTH are alter egos for US."
Logically, extreme opposites must be alter egos of other. You can have a largely good human, who has done bad in the past and his later ego would be evil, but that alter ego wouldn't be completely evil as the little evil the original had would be inverted to a little good. It can't be. However you are right about how elves and orcs represent contradictory human character traits, however the extremes that elves and orcs have taken these traits/philosophical laws to is impossible for humans.
"4) I would not go as far to say that Orcs see beauty as corruption etc. I don't think that they practised any sort of conscious philosophy, besides Tolkien did not write about their such-developed views on that or similar matter. Yet, it is an interesting point of view."
What about the corruption of Denethor and such?
"5) I do not know WHY exactly Tolkien created Orcs but 1) they are present in many Nordic myths (as Goblins) 2) they were at first (in early writings) not created by mutilating Children Of Eru but in another way, so maybe (at first at least) their purpose was to be just a part of the tale, not alter egos for Men (but could be both, of course)."
I believe traditional Goblins are supposed to be mischievous and warlike, I'll have to look it up. I'm used to the modern, corrupted form of orcs and goblins.
Eru is the one, supreme, omniscious and omnipotent God, like any in the monotheistic religions.
He created many, and among them Ainur. Ainur consist of Valar (great and potent, they were to actualy 'create' Arda, of course according to Eru's will, they can be looked upon as Demiurgs, and are somewhat comperable to a degree with gods from greek mythology. The strongest of them was Melkor/Morgoth) of Maiar (great spirits/souls able to incarnate, comparable maybe to angels). There were also spirits (possibly unable to incarnate themselves) that lived in the bodies of great Eagles, Ents, Werewolves.
Eru, of course, created also feär (souls/spirits) of Men and Elves.
Only Eru could give true independence. Elves, Men and Orcs, all have free will, but their nature are different, and this nature is somewhat of a constraint to them. So, even Orcs are able to do good, but their nature makes it almost impossibly difficult. Men, I would say, have the least natural costraints, and consequently, enjoy the 'widest' independence.
I hope you know what I mean
Corruption is a well-developed theme in the Letters of Tolkien. If I was to resent it here, I would have to paste much of them - so I advice looking to them (you should have no problems getting them).
Denethor is a sad story, reading LOTR, Return of the King will reveal more causes of his corruption/fall to despair. Both upper topics are to big to discuss it here, in an orkish tread.
He created many, and among them Ainur. Ainur consist of Valar (great and potent, they were to actualy 'create' Arda, of course according to Eru's will, they can be looked upon as Demiurgs, and are somewhat comperable to a degree with gods from greek mythology. The strongest of them was Melkor/Morgoth) of Maiar (great spirits/souls able to incarnate, comparable maybe to angels). There were also spirits (possibly unable to incarnate themselves) that lived in the bodies of great Eagles, Ents, Werewolves.
Eru, of course, created also feär (souls/spirits) of Men and Elves.
Only Eru could give true independence. Elves, Men and Orcs, all have free will, but their nature are different, and this nature is somewhat of a constraint to them. So, even Orcs are able to do good, but their nature makes it almost impossibly difficult. Men, I would say, have the least natural costraints, and consequently, enjoy the 'widest' independence.
I hope you know what I mean
Corruption is a well-developed theme in the Letters of Tolkien. If I was to resent it here, I would have to paste much of them - so I advice looking to them
(you should have no problems getting them).Denethor is a sad story, reading LOTR, Return of the King will reveal more causes of his corruption/fall to despair. Both upper topics are to big to discuss it here, in an orkish tread.
Walter
Flamekeeper
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- 1,743
As Randir already tried to hint at, Tolkien did not invent Elves and Orcs from scratch. A similar concept is found in Germanic/Northern myths, there we encounter "light elves" and "dark elves"...
----
Randir, as Arvedui already mentioned, the TolkienWiki would be glad to host your essay, we already host a few very good essays and there already exists one about the Origin of Orcs (but in retrospect I consider it more a survey than an essay). If you're familiar with Wikis you could put it up all on your own and design it to your liking...
----
Randir, as Arvedui already mentioned, the TolkienWiki would be glad to host your essay, we already host a few very good essays and there already exists one about the Origin of Orcs (but in retrospect I consider it more a survey than an essay). If you're familiar with Wikis you could put it up all on your own and design it to your liking...
I will not comment on Treebeard’s opinion on the origin of Trolls and Orks, but in his draft letter to Peter Hastings, September 1954 (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien no. 153), Tolkien wrote of Treebeard:
So I think that he is a prime example of a character whose knowledge we should not immediately trust.
Gothmog
Lord of Balrogs
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Treebeard may be wise and knowledgeable, but the only one whose knowledge I really fully trust is JRRT, the author
And he stated from time to time, that even the Wise were in error.
And Gothmog, I would not try venture and state the origin of the Trolls in one sentence, because, like with the Orcs, there are many quotes by Tolkien on this matter, and surprise, surprise, they are similarly not consistent (suggesting at least that different breeds of trolls may have different, separate origins). But that is a matter for another quite substantial essay
Regards
Randir
And he stated from time to time, that even the Wise were in error.
And Gothmog, I would not try venture and state the origin of the Trolls in one sentence, because, like with the Orcs, there are many quotes by Tolkien on this matter, and surprise, surprise, they are similarly not consistent (suggesting at least that different breeds of trolls may have different, separate origins). But that is a matter for another quite substantial essay
Regards
Randir
Gothmog
Lord of Balrogs
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Gothmog
Lord of Balrogs
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