The Silmarillion Ch.#2: Of Aulë and Yavanna

[Ithrynluin]

1. Given that "the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind", didn't Aulë "hit the nail on the head" pretty well by creating the Dwarves? The physical appearance/form of the Dwarves wasn't all that different from the Firstborn and the Secondborn really.

And Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth;

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2. When Aulë made the Dwarves, they seemed to have life in them:

Now Ilúvatar knew what was done, and in the very hour that Aulë's work was complete, and he was pleased, and began to instruct the Dwarves in the speech that he had devised for them,

So it seems that the Valar DID have the power to create life on their own (another example is Yavanna creating the kelvar and the olvar); yet it is said of Melkor that he did not possess such a power, and that he could only corrupt that which already existed. Why?

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3. So the Dwarves can only function when Aulë's thought is with them? But Yavanna also created life of her own, and Ilúvatar doesn't object to that. Does Eru's "rule" then apply only to highly sentient and intelligent beings?

'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'

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4. When exactly did the Dwarves awake? At the same time as the Elves or somewhat later? At the time when the Elves entered Beleriand and took up abode there, the Dwarves seemed to have had bustling cities already. Could the Dwarves also be called "Firstborn" alongside the Elves? In a sense they were truly the first since they had life in them for a brief while, before Ilúvatar put them to sleep.

But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth UNTIL the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children;

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5. We know that the Orcs are mockeries of Elves (or Men?). Aulë wished that the Dwarves would be "strong and unyielding," so as not to fall under Melkor's sway. As far as we know, Melkor has never succeeded in perverting any Dwarf, even if he tried to do so at all. Therefore, was Aulë successful in that view?
Why have the Dwarves been granted a long life, yet not an immortal one?

Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever.

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6. Which belief makes more sense to you? One would assume that the Dwarves know the secrets of their own fate better than any other race does, since Aulë supposedly told it to their fathers. But the Elves were in constant contact with the Valar, and especially to the Noldor, who were pupils of Aulë, it may have been revealed what the true destiny of the Dwarves is.

Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.

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7. Of all her creations, trees were dearest to Yavanna. Her desire for the trees to be able to speak and defend themselves was present even in the Music.

'All have their worth,' said Yavanna, 'and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon bough little mourned in their passing. So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!'
'This is a strange thought,' said Manwë.
'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.'

Then Ilúvatar answered her plea:

When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the KELVAR and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.

We know that the spirits that went to dwell among the olvar were The Shepherds of Trees (Ents/Huorns), but what about those that went among the kelvar? Could it be that one such spirit was Huan the Hound of Valinor? The Eagles maybe?
Could Melkor have corrupted some of Yavanna's spirits? Maybe the Watcher in the Water was in it's beginning a spirit that went among the olvar to protect them, and Melkor corrupted it when he raised the Hithaeglir?
Thuringwethil, the vampire messenger of Sauron, could have been a spirit that went among the kelvar, and was also perverted to the service of evil. Any thoughts?

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8. What drew Aulë and Yavanna together in the first place? They seem to be so fundamentally different, loving and caring for totally different things; there doesn't seem to be much love/understanding between their creations (e.g.: The Dwarves VS. The Ents/Nature in general).

Now when Aulë laboured in the making of the Dwarves he kept this work hidden from the other Valar; but at last he opened his mind to Yavanna and told her of all that had come to pass. Then Yavanna said to him: 'Eru is merciful. Now I see that thy heart rejoiceth, as indeed it may; for thou hast received not only forgiveness but bounty. Yet because thou hiddest this thought from me until its achievement, thy children will have little love for the things of my love. They will love first the things made by their own hands, as doth their father. They will delve in the earth, and the things that grow and live upon the earth they will not heed. Many a tree shall feel the bite of their iron without pity.'

Please feel free to add your own questions or wonderings about this chapter and above all - have fun!

 

[Húrin Thalion]

1:

1. Given that "the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind", didn't Aulë "hit the nail on the head" pretty well by creating the Dwarves? The physical appearance/form of the Dwarves wasn't all that different from the Firstborn and the Secondborn really.

Yes he did and I see this as due to one of two possibilties:

A. He had at least some knowledge of their form from the time before Arda.

Or:

B. He saw that this was the best and natural form of a creature that is meant to handle tools and do the things that men do.

Also this inspiration may have been put in him by Eru to make all creatures look somewhat similar.

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2:

So it seems that the Valar DID have the power to create life on their own (another example is Yavanna creating the kelvar and the olvar); yet it is said of Melkor that he did not possess such a power, and that he could only corrupt that which already existed. Why?

They had life then because they were in his thought as you say in number three. Melkor could probably also create but not keep "awake" creatures. See my answer to three for more on thought and life.

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3: Eru did not object to this for this was already permitted and in the song. The ents were kept "awake" by Eru himself, just as with the dwarves. For when Yavanna sought up Manwë he consulted with his heart (Iluvatar I would say) and said that this was in line with the creators will and that he had heard her part about the ents in the song. I think that Eru's power applies to all large and small, within and without Arda, for he has created all and would not all be under him then? This means that he must have foreseen and possibly even wanted the rebellion of Melkor, for all that think themselves opposing his will through his deeds create something even more beautiful that he could never imagine. This is just my opinion though.

 

[Aiwendil2]

Given that "the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind", didn't Aulë "hit the nail on the head" pretty well by creating the Dwarves?

I always thought that this was meant to explain the short stature of the Dwarves.

So it seems that the Valar DID have the power to create life on their own (another example is Yavanna creating the kelvar and the olvar); yet it is said of Melkor that he did not possess such a power, and that he could only corrupt that which already existed. Why?

My understanding is this: the Valar do NOT have the power to create fear, or sentient beings. They can create things that "live" in that they grow and reproduce, but not things with souls. The Dwarves would have been mere automatons prior to Iluvatar's granting fear to them.

So the Dwarves can only function when Aulë's thought is with them? But Yavanna also created life of her own, and Ilúvatar doesn't object to that. Does Eru's "rule" then apply only to highly sentient and intelligent beings?

Again, I don't think that Yavanna was capable of creating creatures with souls, without the direct consent of Iluvatar.

At the time when the Elves entered Beleriand and took up abode there, the Dwarves seemed to have had bustling cities already.

I'm not sure what makes you say this. There is no mention of the Dwarves (after chapter 2) until 'Of the Sindar'. There it is said, "It came to pass during the second age of the captivity of Melkor that Dwarves came over the Blue Mountains of Ered Luin into Beleriand." This leaves a fairly lengthy space between the awakening of the Elves and the first appearance of Dwarves. Also, it seems likely that if the Dwarves had awoken at the same time as the Elves, they would have encountered each other during the Great March.

We know that the spirits that went to dwell among the olvar were The Shepherds of Trees (Ents/Huorns), but what about those that went among the kelvar? Could it be that one such spirit was Huan the Hound of Valinor? The Eagles maybe?

This is a very interesting theory. Unfortunately, I don't have most of the books with me at the moment, but I'm sure there are some relevant passages in "Myths Transformed" in HoMe X and in "Of the Ents and the Eagles" in HoMe XI.

 

[Ithrynluin]

By Aiwendil2
This leaves a fairly lengthy space between the awakening of the Elves and the first appearance of Dwarves. Also, it seems likely that if the Dwarves had awoken at the same time as the Elves, they would have encountered each other during the Great March.

The quote from the book isn't too specific really, it says "until the Firstborn have awakened" which could be at the same time or later. They wouldn't have necessarily encountered each other on the Great March; the Dwarves stuck to the mountains and their halls of stone, they rarely ventured to lowlands and woods just like that.
Maybe they did encounter them but did not pay much heed to each other? Or maybe the Dwarves fled and hid before Oromë, because they were awed by him?

 

[Melian]

Concerning point #2:
I tend to think that ,yes,the Valar could create life of their own.I believe that they were allowed to do so by Eru.Of course,he never stated this but I'm sure that he was well aware that it was inevitable that some of them would take a dare and create speeking 'beings'.He might have even sensed that it would be exactly Aule to try his hand at it.I can't possibly assume that the Valars could do anything beyond his thought and reach.He created them so powerful and therefore had an idea of what they could do,how far their confidence and skill might gne more thing---Aule was unclear about the very specific form of Firstborn,but he did have a vision after all.To me it shows only that Eru was the reason why Aule's 'guess' wasn't that far----he wanted so.for Aule could have created three-legged four-eyed freaks,couldn't he?So after all,Eru had always been on the lookout,and aule's actions were not completely surpising to him.

#8:
I don't think they where that different---they seem to me like the two sides of the powerful element Earth.She was bound with living spirits,and he was concerned with matter.Organic and unorganic.They well complemented each other and to me couldn't live separately.

#6:
The first one makes more sense to me,though later on the Elves excelled and the Dwarves seamed to have lost that spiritual link of creator and creation.It was in some epochs that only mining could be called a relation to Aule.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

2. When Aulë made the Dwarves, they seemed to have life in them:

I have always believed that they simply had the thought of their creator. They were not sentient beings until Eru granted them that to them. I do not believe that any of the Valar had the power to create sentient beings who were independant from their own wills. Only Eru could create (as has been so eloquently said earlier) wills with feelings - or ultimately souls.

4. When exactly did the Dwarves awake? At the same time as the Elves or somewhat later? At the time when the Elves entered Beleriand and took up abode there, the Dwarves seemed to have had bustling cities already. Could the Dwarves also be called "Firstborn" alongside the Elves? In a sense they were truly the first since they had life in them for a brief while, before Ilúvatar put them to sleep.

I do not think it was at the same time as the Elves. There are too many references in the books lending to the idea that Elves were first and foremost - in every aspect. The Dwarves were probably second. How soon they came after the Elves, I do not know. It is interesting to note, however, that it is still Men, not Dwarves, who are called the Secondborn. However, that is simply pointing to the Children of Iluvatar and not to the other beings.

5. We know that the Orcs are mockeries of Elves (or Men?). Aulë wished that the Dwarves would be "strong and unyielding," so as not to fall under Melkor's sway. As far as we know, Melkor has never succeeded in perverting any Dwarf, even if he tried to do so at all. Therefore, was Aulë successful in that view?

I cannot help but think of how Tolkien first portrayed the Dwarves in his earlier writings. They were evil then. What made him decide to change them and make them into a "good" race?

Why have the Dwarves been granted a long life, yet not an immortal one?

Perhaps this could be because of their resistance to evil? Men had longer lives if they resisted evil, and it is repeated time and time again in the books that when Man is tempted and falls under that tempation then he falls - and his and his descendant's life span is ultimately decreased. However, the Dwarves never fell under this as far as we can see - was it a blessing from Eru?

6. Which belief makes more sense to you? One would assume that the Dwarves know the secrets of their own fate better than any other race does, since Aulë supposedly told it to their fathers. But the Elves were in constant contact with the Valar, and especially to the Noldor, who were pupils of Aulë, it may have been revealed what the true destiny of the Dwarves is.

I believe that the Dwarves knew their fate. However, that is simply because I like that fate better and feel that Tolkien would have picked it over the other fate of simply turning to the dust. In all his writings Tolkien seems very considerate of spirits, and it just doesn't seem to make sense that he would just let all the spirits of the dwarves vanish and "turn to dust". I am sure he had a special place prepared for them in the depths of his infinite wisdom.

 

[gate7ole]

1.
Aiwendil2 gave here a very interesting answer that had never occurred to me, but now that I think of it, it fits very well. The dwarves are shorter, they have great beards, their males and females look the same. All these fundamental differences from the other two races come from Aulë’s limited vision of the Children of Ilúvatar.

2 and 3.
Creating life and creating independent life are two different things. The second one was not an ability that the Valar had. It requires the “Flame Imperishable” which only Eru held and -if I remember correctly,- the Valar will obtain after the Last Battle. So, until then, the kelvar, the olvar, the creatures of the oceans... will need Eru’s blessing to have will of their own.

5.
The long life of the Dwarves may be considered an effect of the 1st subject. Aulë didn’t know the “normal” duration of a mortal life. He chose this number which was the same with the Númenóreans, but three times more than the other races of Men.
Of course he didn’t give them immortality which would be “too much” for his creations.

6.
Now this is a great subject and needs a lot of discussion –which is outside the scope of this thread.
The Silmarillion (if seen from inside the mythology and not as fiction of a person), is the collection of the stories of tradition of the Elves of Beleriand, preserved by the refuges of Gondolin and given to the Edain. Then these stories were modified according to the Mannish nature. So, all these stories must be seen from this scope (and Tolkien deliberately did so).
Applied here, the origin of the Dwarves given in the book, is the account of Men (derived from the elvish account). There is definitely truth, but it is also possible that some fragments are erroneous. I suppose that a dwarvish book with the same subject would be quite different, but they are too secretive and such books won’t be found.
About this much is told by Tolkien in “Myths Transformed” (Morgoth’s Ring).

7.
I agree with Ithrynluin’s examples of spirits that entered the kelvar and olvar. All the strange creatures that enter the stories of Silmarillion and Lotr which cannot be identified as one of the three species (original or corrupted) should belong to this category: trolls, wargs, Old Man Willow, the Watcher, huorns.
It seems to me that Tolkien wanted to give hints about the identities of such creatures and maintain the coherence in his works.

8.
But they are not fundamentally different. They both love the fabrics of Earth and are masters at creating. Together they have absolute control over the ground of Arda (while Ulmo has control over the water and Manwë with Varda over the air). I think that they are the most fitting couple of the Valar.

4.
It isn’t clear when the Dwarves awoke from any passage.
The same question can be raised about the spirits that inhabited the kelvar and olvar. Since they were summoned to enter their bodies, these spirits are from outside Arda and not born in it (like the three races). Does this mean that they are older? Can they bear children? (From the Ents and Eagles we learn that they can). Will these spirits have a place in Arda Marred after the Last Battle?

 

[Maedhros]

Given that "the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind", didn't Aulë "hit the nail on the head" pretty well by creating the Dwarves? The physical appearance/form of the Dwarves wasn't all that different from the Firstborn and the Secondborn really.

It was pretty close i admit. The only thing that i can add is that it seems to me that dwarven women are much more like in appearance to the males than the Children of Ilúvatar.

When Aulë made the Dwarves, they seemed to have life in them:

No, only Ilúvatar can give independent thought.

When exactly did the Dwarves awake? At the same time as the Elves or somewhat later? At the time when the Elves entered Beleriand and took up abode there, the Dwarves seemed to have had bustling cities already. Could the Dwarves also be called "Firstborn" alongside the Elves? In a sense they were truly the first since they had life in them for a brief while, before Ilúvatar put them to sleep.

I guess that in a sense the dwarves can be called the firstborns. I think that they awoke later than the elves, don't have the books with me to give you a precise time.

We know that the Orcs are mockeries of Elves (or Men?). Aulë wished that the Dwarves would be "strong and unyielding," so as not to fall under Melkor's sway. As far as we know, Melkor has never succeeded in perverting any Dwarf, even if he tried to do so at all. Therefore, was Aulë successful in that view?

Perhaps, but in a way Melkor was succesful in the estrangement between the dwarves and the other children.

What drew Aulë and Yavanna together in the first place? They seem to be so fundamentally different, loving and caring for totally different things; there doesn't seem to be much love/understanding between their creations (e.g.: The Dwarves VS. The Ents/Nature in general).

It could be the fact that both were creators of things.

 

[YayGollum]

Oo! I like this thread! Lots of crazy questions about Dwarveses!

1. Of course Aule hit the nail on the head! He was the engineer of the Valar! He was listening to that crazy song. He got an image in his head. He knew that the things were supposed to have two legs, two arms, two ears, two eyes, a nose, and a mouth! I just doubt that they had invented measurements at the time. Maybe the beautifulness of the stinky elf faces wasn't described very well in the song. I don't know. Ugly people are fun! oh well.

2. Okay, I see two parts to this question. I would like to think that the Dwarves were superly alive and awake and everything in the beginning. You don't really instruct machines, do you? You'd stick information in them, I guess. oh well. Lots of people around here are saying that, no, they only really woke up when Eru said so. Still, they were definitely the Firstborn. No doubt about that. I guess I'll go with the crowd and say that sure, the Valar can only make sentient things with Eru's approval. Which answers the Mel part of the question. He's evil, so Eru doesn't approve of evil stuffs. Mel gots to corrupt. Too bad.

3. Yes.

4. That's just crazy. How am I supposed to answer a question like that? Well, maybe it's in some book I haven't read. No, I haven't seen any superly definite date for when the Dwarves woke up for the second time.

5. For the first part of the question ---> Yes! For the second part ---> Aule was being nice to Yavanna. If he made it so that they were immortal, they would have multiplied all over the place and kill her forests too fast. His system turned out pretty well for her. Something about there not being many lady Dwarves around anyways. oh well.

6. Of course I like the Dwarves' version of their afterlife better. Why not? The Sil. says somewhere that Aule was always having fun with making things, then having fun with moving on to some new project. That's probably why he wasn't the last one to stop caring about Middle Earth. He had plenty of projects to distract him from it. He was messing around with different projects when he was messing with the elveses, which is why they just came up with their own little ideas about the Dwarves.

7. Nope. No thoughts. Too crazy for me. How many different kinds of spirits are there out there? Ack! oh well.

8. Hellooo? Opposites attract!

 

[Maedhros]

Evil Dwarves?

From the Book of Lost Tales I: The awakening of Men

According to A 'the fays and those Men that aided them were defeated', but B calls it an 'undecided battle', and the Men corrupted by Fangli fled away and became 'wild and savage tribes', worshipping Fangli and Melko. Thereafter (in A only) Palisor was possessed by 'Fangli and his hosts of Nauglath (or Dwarves)'. (In the early writings the Dwarves are always portrayed as an evil people.)

Were dwarves evil?

 

[Finduilas]

1. Given that "the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind", didn't Aulë "hit the nail on the head" pretty well by creating the Dwarves? The physical appearance/form of the Dwarves wasn't all that different from the Firstborn and the Secondborn really.

I should post another theory different from the others posted here:
It is possible that Eru had 'stolen' part of dwarves' appearance.He saw them before finishing the Firdtborn's creation and that might have had some influance on his imagination and vision of the Elves.After all,he saw dwarves were tenacious.

So it seems that the Valar DID have the power to create life on their own (another example is Yavanna creating the kelvar and the olvar); yet it is said of Melkor that he did not possess such a power, and that he could only corrupt that which already existed. Why?

Power needs to be supported.Good has always beated evil.So it seems that the power of good is stronger than the one of evil and it will always be if it is supported by good people(elves,etc.).The power of Melkor is undoubtfully enormous but defile and nothing pure can come out of it.And isn't life the purest of everything?

We know that the Orcs are mockeries of Elves (or Men?).

Orcs are mockeries of Elves indeed:

Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea,thatall those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor,ere Utimno was broken,were put there in prison,and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved;and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves

Therefore, was Aulë successful in that view?

Yes,because he made them 'stone-hard,stubborn' but also because they didn't care for other creatures a lot and this is probably the raeson for wich they resisted Melkor and did not take much part in history.

Why have the Dwarves been granted a long life, yet not an immortal one?

Probably because as it is said:

But fearing that the other Valar might blame his work,he wrought in secret

he was afraid.Ery created life,not Valar and Aule knew Iluvatar was going to get angry because of his disobedience.And if he made them strong he didn't want to surpass his power and thus make angry Eru.So he satisfied himself with their long life.

We know that the spirits that went to dwell among the olvar were The Shepherds of Trees (Ents/Huorns), but what about those that went among the kelvar? Could it be that one such spirit was Huan the Hound of Valinor? The Eagles maybe?

Yes,If Huan was under the protection of Yavanna.After all ,she was Kementari and loved the whole earth and the animals as well.Huan had a specific destiny and an important one which might have been destined by Yavanna.

What drew Aulë and Yavanna together in the first place? They seem to be so fundamentally different, loving and caring for totally different things; there doesn't seem to be much love/understanding between their creations (e.g.: The Dwarves VS. The Ents/Nature in general).

Let see Tulkas and Nessa:

He (Tulkas)delights in wrestling and in contest of strenght

Deer she (Nessa) loves,and they follow her train whenever she goes in the wind

Opposites attract each other,just like the poles of magnet.

 

[Gil-Galad]

1. Given that "the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind", didn't Aulë "hit the nail on the head" pretty well by creating the Dwarves? The physical appearance/form of the Dwarves wasn't all that different from the Firstborn and the Secondborn really.

I disagree with Finduilas and her theory.The Firstborn had been already in Ilëvatar's thoughts when Aule created the dwarves.The time of the Firstborn wasn't come.
Aule did his best to create a living creatures and really loved them but I do think his abilities was not enough to create such a beautiful "things" as elves.

2. When Aulë made the Dwarves, they seemed to have life in them.So it seems that the Valar DID have the power to create life on their own (another example is Yavanna creating the kelvar and the olvar); yet it is said of Melkor that he did not possess such a power, and that he could only corrupt that which already existed. Why?

I'll write a theory that is not quite possible but I like it.Eru created everything with love,the same was with Aule and Yavanna,they really loved their creations.They love them cause they have made olvar,kelvar,dwarves,people,elves by their own.
That is why men and elves are called children of Iluvatar,cause they are loved as much as children are loved by their parents.At the same time Melkor couldn't love anything ,he could not create anything because he was not able to love it.That is why he was only able to corrupt,because of the evil in his mind heart and soul.

3. So the Dwarves can only function when Aulë's thought is with them? But Yavanna also created life of her own, and Ilúvatar doesn't object to that. Does Eru's "rule" then apply only to highly sentient and intelligent beings?

Yes.The sentient and intelligent beings should have been created by Eru,not by somebody else.In my view that was the most compicated part of all process of creating things and Valar were aloud to create only supporting things like kelvar and olvar.

4. When exactly did the Dwarves awake? At the same time as the Elves or somewhat later? At the time when the Elves entered Beleriand and took up abode there, the Dwarves seemed to have had bustling cities already. Could the Dwarves also be called "Firstborn" alongside the Elves? In a sense they were truly the first since they had life in them for a brief while, before Ilúvatar put them to sleep.

They could be called the "Firstborn" if we mean the time when they were created.But we shouldn't forget that they have to wait till elves awake.So we could say that the dwarves are the first who aree created and the elves are the first who awake.

6. Which belief makes more sense to you? One would assume that the Dwarves know the secrets of their own fate better than any other race does, since Aulë supposedly told it to their fathers. But the Elves were in constant contact with the Valar, and especially to the Noldor, who were pupils of Aulë, it may have been revealed what the true destiny of the Dwarves is.

In my personal view the Dwarves know the secrets of their own fate better than any other race.Aule is actually their "father",he loves them ,he brakes Eru's order to create them...etc.So I think it is very possible that Aule told their fathers what dwarves' fate would be .

We know that the spirits that went to dwell among the olvar were The Shepherds of Trees (Ents/Huorns), but what about those that went among the kelvar? Could it be that one such spirit was Huan the Hound of Valinor? The Eagles maybe?

Yes,I think this is possible.I don't believe all eagles are spirits,probably only Torondor,as a chief of all eagles, is a spirit.

 

[Finduilas]

I disagree with Finduilas and her theory.The Firstborn had been already in Ilëvatar's thoughts when Aule created the dwarves.The time of the Firstborn wasn't come.

Yes,they have but probably Eru wanted to perfect his creatures and make them stronger and more tenacious in this dangerous epoch.

Aule did his best to create a living creatures and really loved them but I do think his abilities was not enough to create such a beautiful "things" as elves.

Undoubtfully he couldn't create something very similar to elves but the image of his children and their stenght might have been liked and sensibly used of purpose by Iluvatar.

 

[Eol]

2. When Aulë made the Dwarves, they seemed to have life in them:
So it seems that the Valar DID have the power to create life on their own (another example is Yavanna creating the kelvar and the olvar); yet it is said of Melkor that he did not possess such a power, and that he could only corrupt that which already existed. Why?


Well, if we are saying that Eru is completely omnipotent, then he should have been able to see the future and prevent Melkor from using this gift of creation which was allowed to a few of the Ainur. So, he could have allowed Aule and Yavanna to create because he knew the things they were creating were good, even if the dwarves were against his will they were not designed with evil intent.

From the Valaquenta: But Aule remained faithful to Eru and submitted all that he did to his will.

But, if he is not completely omnipotent, then he has no way of seeing that Melkor will become evil.

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3. So the Dwarves can only function when Aulë's thought is with them? But Yavanna also created life of her own, and Ilúvatar doesn't object to that. Does Eru's "rule" then apply only to highly sentient and intelligent beings?

Aule specifically went against Eru's rule that none should make life before the Firstborn, while Yavanna's creation were part of Iluvatar's plan. So yes, I think you are right ithrynluin when saying that Eru's rule of creation only applies to intelligent and sentient beings.

 

[jallan]

In standard Zarathustran, Jewish, Christian, Moslem stories about the rebellion of Satan, the question of omniscience does not arrise.

The rebellion is a fact.

In Tolkien also, it is a fact.

Tolkien avoids theological paradoxes as unnecessary to his literary purpose.

One might also ask why Eru doesn't stop Melkor.

One reason, within the tale, is that a game is being played, somewhat like the Biblical game between God and Satan over Job.

Melkor is being allowed to oppose Eru, but Eru claims he will be able to take anything Melkor does and twist it into a good that would otherwise not have been.

Can Eru do this?

In a way this is Tolkien's answer to the problem of evil, though it does not answer why Eru proceeds in this fashion.

However, in Letters of J.R.R. Tolien, letter 211:

That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.

In other words, Eru does not destroy Melkor and his evil because, in fact God does not destroy Satan and his evil.

Theological speculation on the reasons are as irrelevant to his tales as would be scientific speculation about the biology of fire-breathing, winged dragons.

Tolkien is not getting into such matters.

You can speculate on such things outside Tolkien's tale of course.

 

[Ingwë]

1. Given that "the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind", didn't Aulë "hit the nail on the head" pretty well by creating the Dwarves? The physical appearance/form of the Dwarves wasn't all that different from the Firstborn and the Secondborn really.
It seems that the forms of the Children really were unclear to Awlë's mind. But I think that he made them different because he wanted to create a race of the stone and craft - just like him. He wanted to have a children who need his help. He wanted to teach them. That's why he made them different. But I think that he didn't know how the other children will look like.

2.So it seems that the Valar DID have the power to create life on their own (another example is Yavanna creating the kelvar and the olvar); yet it is said of Melkor that he did not possess such a power, and that he could only corrupt that which already existed. Why?
Yeah, they really had the power to create life. But the children are in the song and they will be created. Aulë just created something that was foretell in the song though his creatures were different. Aulë and Yavanna created life but later they talked to Eru. They cannot do anything without asking him. But Melkor didn't possessed such a power, yes. He was the most powerful Vala but he cannot create life. Maybe when he turned to Evil he lost his powers or he used all his powers to create Evil things. He changed the Elves to Orcs but the Firstborn aren't his creatures. Very interesting...

3. So the Dwarves can only function when Aulë's thought is with them? But Yavanna also created life of her own, and Ilúvatar doesn't object to that. Does Eru's "rule" then apply only to highly sentient and intelligent beings?
Yavanna's creatures are ionteligent but they will help her to save the nature and to keep the other creatures. The Dwarves of Aulë destroy the nature though they create beatiful forms (I don't have dwarves)
The Dwarves can function withouth Aulë's thought. When he tried to destroy them they 'escaped' so they're independent. But they love Aulë and I would say that they want his thought to be with them

4. When exactly did the Dwarves awake? At the same time as the Elves or somewhat later? At the time when the Elves entered Beleriand and took up abode there, the Dwarves seemed to have had bustling cities already. Could the Dwarves also be called "Firstborn" alongside the Elves? In a sense they were truly the first since they had life in them for a brief while, before Ilúvatar put them to sleep.
The Dwarves come before before the Elves but later they slept till the Elves awoke (I think I have problems with the tenses in this sentence ). When the Elves awoke Iluvatar arouse theDwarves again

5. We know that the Orcs are mockeries of Elves (or Men?). Aulë wished that the Dwarves would be "strong and unyielding," so as not to fall under Melkor's sway. As far as we know, Melkor has never succeeded in perverting any Dwarf, even if he tried to do so at all. Therefore, was Aulë successful in that view?
Why have the Dwarves been granted a long life, yet not an immortal one?
The Dwarves are different. They are specific race. I think that Aulë didn't dare to create them immortal. Or he didn't possess the power to make them immortal. But they are him own children so he gived them long life. And I think that the Vala was really successful in that view. Probably more than... no...

6. Which belief makes more sense to you? One would assume that the Dwarves know the secrets of their own fate better than any other race does, since Aulë supposedly told it to their fathers. But the Elves were in constant contact with the Valar, and especially to the Noldor, who were pupils of Aulë, it may have been revealed what the true destiny of the Dwarves is.
I think that the Dwarves know the secrets of their own fate better that any other race though I think that they didn't know much... The Elves were near Aulë but I think that he didn't tell them the secrets of the Dwarves. He taught them of the crafts. And he taught the Dwarves as well but he told his children more things.

7. We know that the spirits that went to dwell among the olvar were The Shepherds of Trees (Ents/Huorns), but what about those that went among the kelvar? Could it be that one such spirit was Huan the Hound of Valinor? The Eagles maybe?
Could Melkor have corrupted some of Yavanna's spirits? Maybe the Watcher in the Water was in it's beginning a spirit that went among the olvar to protect them, and Melkor corrupted it when he raised the Hithaeglir?
Thuringwethil, the vampire messenger of Sauron, could have been a spirit that went among the kelvar, and was also perverted to the service of evil. Any thoughts?
I don't think that there were many creatures that went among the kelvar. They are more powerful (well, not more powerful but they can take care of themselves). However, there were creatures among the kelvar. Maybe the Eagles. But the Eagles are servants of Manwë, not Yavanna's. I don't assume that the Eagles were the spirits among the kelvar. And maybe Melkor corrupted some of her creatures. I agree that the Watcher was corrupted creature. But was it Yavanna's? Melkor cannot create life so he corrupted the spirit and make him that terrible watcher. I like this theory! And many Thury...

8. What drew Aulë and Yavanna together in the first place? They seem to be so fundamentally different, loving and caring for totally different things; there doesn't seem to be much love/understanding between their creations (e.g.: The Dwarves VS. The Ents/Nature in general).
I don't think that they're different. They created life, they love Arda. As gate7ole said, Together they have absolute control over the ground of Arda