The Silmarillion Movie: Will it ever be made?

Ealdwyn said:

But if you believe that it's all down to Fate then you're saying there's no free will. If there's no free will then nobody can be condemned for doing anything wrong because they could not have done anything else. By the same argument neither Morgoth or Sauron did anything wrong.

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Good points-- in certain ways.

Elbereth Vala Varda said:

The Music of Ainulindale?

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Yes, of which the Ainulindalé stands as many complex threads Woven into One. And can Fate and free Will co-exist?

Vilisse said:

Yes, of which the Ainulindalé stands as many complex threads Woven into One. And can Fate and free Will co-exist?

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It depends what you mean by "Fate". Predeterminism or predestination?
If all events are already woven in the threads, as you describe it, then that would suggest predestination and no free will.

Ealdwyn said:

If all events are already woven in the threads, as you describe it, then that would suggest predestination and no free will.

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Ah, you put me at a loss of words for this...

Congratulations...I guess? I do indeed have my limits...yet Words are limiting in themselves.

Vilisse said:

Yes, of which the Ainulindalé stands as many complex threads Woven into One. And can Fate and free Will co-exist?

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It is the ways of Illuvatar, that choice and Fate may co-exist.

Vilisse said:

Ah, you put me at a loss of words for this...

Congratulations...I guess? I do indeed have my limits...yet Words are limiting in themselves.

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This is an good question and would make a great discussion: is there predeterminism and/or predestination in ME?

I've just done a quick search of LotR, and nowhere does Tolkien use the words destiny or destined. Interesting for a man so very precise with his language.

Ealdwyn said:

This is an good question and would make a great discussion: is there predeterminism and/or predestination in ME?

I've just done a quick search of LotR, and nowhere does Tolkien use the words destiny or destined. Interesting for a man so very precise with his language.

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I would imagine that he used the same belief as the Christian/Catholic belief. That Illuvatar would have known every outcome possible, and what would come to pass, but still the people were given free choice-- only that He knew.

Elbereth Vala Varda said:

I would imagine that he used the same belief as the Christian/Catholic belief. That Illuvatar would have known every outcome possible, and what would come to pass, but still the people were given free choice-- only that He knew.

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Yes, I agree. But knowing every possible outcome means that there is more than one outcome. So events are not already determined.

Ealdwyn said:

Yes, I agree. But knowing every possible outcome means that there is more than one outcome. So events are not already determined.

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Exactly. They are not already determined, but Illuvatar would know exactly what they would be. Hard to wrap my head around-- but how it is nonetheless.

Elbereth Vala Varda said:

Exactly. They are not already determined, but Illuvatar would know exactly what they would be. Hard to wrap my head around-- but how it is nonetheless.

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Words may be limiting sometimes.

Yes they can be at times, yet they cooperated for me this time.

This is the deepest point of the entire "predestination vs. free will" debate, which I have engaged with and studied for 40 years.

It is incredibly difficult to 'wrap one's head around' as it can only be discerned from a spiritual perspective. Man does not have the capacity.

That said, it's also a 'dangerous' topic - and far astray (or so it seems) from the original thread's intent.

(And I don't think this is the right place to engage in it. It has not been resolved by the greatest theological minds throughout history, and will not be resolved by us, here, today, or any time soon.)

Yet people on both sides of the 'debate' (and actually there is a 3rd and even a 4th side at a minimum) most frequently insist "they are right" - thus, the deterioration into argument.

So even if there were a "right forum" for this discussion here, I personally believe I would refrain from entering into it.

My only plea is that we don't try to 'convince' one another of 'right or wrong' on this issue here... it is, quite frankly, beyond our limited human minds to grasp, and again, only spiritually discerned.

It is a dangerous, and intriguing topic. I assume this has been discussed here before..

Well-aged Enting said:

(And I don't think this is the right place to engage in it. It has not been resolved by the greatest theological minds throughout history, and will not be resolved by us, here, today, or any time soon.)

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Nor will it ever be solved by the greatest theological minds of any era.

Well, off topic as it is (in this thread) I don't think we need to solve the matter with respect to the Primary World, but we could discuss the matter in some measure with respect to Tolkien's Subcreated World . . .

. . . and for that I would recommend reading Fate and Free Will in The Nature of Middle-Earth --
see also Fate and Free Will in Tolkien Studies volume VI, edited by Carl Hostetter, which is there presented after Verlyn Flieger's essay: The Music and the Task: Fate and Free Will in Middle-Earth.

As I once tried to sum up Verlyn Flieger's opinion (please consider that her full argument is going to be much more persuasive, even if I have accurately "potted" her argument in one brief sentence): V.F. argues that Elves do not have free will in an "external sense" -- that is, their choices cannot change external outcomes but may have inner consequences for them, as with Feanor choosing not to surrender the Silmarils.

Or, another time I tried to briefly present her opinion: Verlyn Flieger argues that Elves have no free will with respect to altering events. She uses Feanor's choice (regarding the surrender of the Silmarils) as an illustration of events not being altered (and speaking more generally now) "but deeply influencing the inner nature of individuals involved in those events."

I actually disagree with V. Flieger here.

And on that note, I also recommend: Strange and Free — On Some Aspects of the Nature of Elves and Men, by Thomas Fornet-Ponse, Tolkien Studies volume VII.

And I hope (once again) that CFH will forgive that I lift him out of the context of a larger discussion (elsewhere), to post this much of his interesting commentary:

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"Tolkien does not ascribe Free Will to Men (and by implication deny it to Elves) in any text save the very first pencil draft of what became "The Ainulindale". Already in the next, fair copy version Tolkien replaced the term "will" with "virtue"; and these terms are not interchangeable. Virtue is power (i.e., ability and/or efficacy), not (simply) will (i.e., intent/choice). I submit that the usual dichotomy drawn between Fate and Free Will in these discussions is false. Tolkien makes it quite plain that Will is operative only within "provided circumstances" (i.e. of the World (ambar) and of Fate (umbar); see Letters p. 195): thus they are not mutually exclusive terms."

[different response]

"Furthermore, Tolkien's own discussion in the unpublished note on "Fate and Free Will" certainly makes no claim or even implication that Free Will obtains only when there is an ultimate consequence to its exercise. Rather, there, "free will" is defined as obtaining when (and only when, but by implication always when) a determination of course (action or inaction) is made for a "fully-aware purpose", amid the physical conditions and processes of the world (ambar) and the network of chances within "fate" (umbar). As Tolkien says in Letters, Free Will is "derivative" (i.e., I take it, of God's will and of His creation of the world and of rational creatures which He endows with will) and therefore always operates "within provided circumstances". As these unpublished notes explain, these "circumstances" are both ambar 'the world' and umbar 'fate': and these are "provided", of course, ultimately by Eru himself. Obviously, exercises of Free Will so defined can have moral valuation, can even be "sinful", within the world and apart from questions of one's ultimate destiny, since they can either accord with or violate the moral standards of the world that ultimately also derive from Eru."

CF Hostetter
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Perhaps it was fate that this topic should emerge in this thread?

Or something!

This has fallen far off of topic. According to the title-- we are supposed to be discussing if a Silmarillion movie will ever be made...

According to the news in the link, the Silmarillion movie series is not far away at all. How many movies do you think will be made if it is made? Write your predictions and what topics will be covered in each movie. In my opinion, it will be made in 6 movies. My estimates are as follows;

1- The Creation of the Valar, the Wars of the Valar, and the Battle of the Powers
2- Life in Valinor, Melkor's Destroying of the Two Trees, Stealing of the Silmarils, the First Battle, and Dagor-Nuin-Giliath
3- Dagor Aglareb, the Siege of Angband, Dagor Bragollach, and the Duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth
4- The Tale of Beren and Luthien and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
5- The Tale of the Children of Hurin, the Dwarves' Sack of Doriath, the Second and Third Kinslayings, and the Fall of Gondolin
6- The War of Wrath

Turin_Turambar said:

Peter Jackson Returning For The Silmarillion? New Report Gets Us Closer To Middle-earth

Is Peter Jackson going to direct The Silmarillion? What a fantastic way to return to The Lord of the Rings and Middle Earth.

www.giantfreakinrobot.com

According to the news in the link, the Silmarillion movie series is not far away at all. How many movies do you think will be made if it is made? Write your predictions and what topics will be covered in each movie. In my opinion, it will be made in 6 movies. My estimates are as follows;

1- The Creation of the Valar, the Wars of the Valar, and the Battle of the Powers
2- Life in Valinor, Melkor's Destroying of the Two Trees, Stealing of the Silmarils, the First Battle, and Dagor-Nuin-Giliath
3- Dagor Aglareb, the Siege of Angband, Dagor Bragollach, and the Duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth
4- The Tale of Beren and Luthien and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
5- The Tale of the Children of Hurin, the Dwarves' Sack of Doriath, the Second and Third Kinslayings, and the Fall of Gondolin
6- The War of Wrath

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The Children of Húrin *needs* to be rated R.

It is a depressing and gruesome story.

CL

The Silarillion sounds like a great way to go movie-wise, seeing as there are so many battles and great characters.

I seriously hope not. The Silmarillion has too much material to fit into a movie or movie series, so I think it would have to be a multi-season TV show in order to adapt the story faithfully.

I also dread to see what sort of creative choices might be made in a Silm movie or TV show. I don't trust today's Hollywood to make good choices visually or with character relationships or whatever, especially given what we've seen in RoP. Now, I do think Peter Jackson would at least do a better job than Amazon in making the Elves look beautiful, but I still can't stomach the thought of my favorite Elves being widely associated with the face of some mere mortal.

Hopefully, this is just another Internet rumor.