The Silmarillion - Of Thingol and Melian

[Aiwendil2]

Hmmmmm, didn't he do that then, risk being involved with the Doom of Mandos because of the Silmaril? Did he thought about his people then?

I agree that in this he was very much in error. Don't mistake me - I don't think that he is wholly a good, wise, character. Nor is he wholly selfish and stupid.

 

[kohaku]

I believe Melian was sent to middle earth for a purpose, to help combat the evil of Morgoth. After all, in the Valaquenta the Maiar are described as "the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers." It may be that there was no specific plan to begin with, but the result was her meeting Thingol and their subsequent love, and the power she gave to Doriath and the enrichment, as ithrynluin says, of the races of elves and men.

 

[Inderjit S]

I believe they may have gone to Aman evenutally, as Elwe didn't want to deprive Luthien of the 'lights of Heaven'. Though at the time, the two Trees were destroyed.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Is this the beginning of a Nightingale motive? It seems they play large part in the theme of lovers meeting in the woods. Melian and Elwë, Beren and Lúthien, and by proxy Arwen and Aragorn

Yes I do thing this is the beginning of a Naghtingale motive.What I have noticed also is that all meetings happen in the woods.Can we say that the woods are the "love place" for all creatures?

I'm struck my the similarities of these two meetings - the one almost seems presage to the other. It could be said that Melian was as far above Elwë, as Lúthien was Beren. Strange then that Thingol had no compassion for Beren's plight?

I think that was so because Thingol was selfish and proud person.He was immortal so he probably thought he had every right to marry even Maia.At the same time Beren was mortal,his ephemeral life didn't allow him to be as great as elves ,according to Thingol.What is more,Luthien was his daughter and every father is dreaming of the best for his daughters.So Beren didn't seem the best opportunity for Luthien.

How was this Maiar blood was passed down to Lúthien? If Melian took the form of an Elf then wouldn't that make Lúthien of true elven blood too? Was there a Maia gene? Or was this more of a spiritual legacy?

Of course there was some Maia gene.I think It was in Luthien's character and some of her abilities.The fact her mother took the form of elf probbaly determined the disability of Luthien to change her form like other Maiar and Valar,but nothing more.

 

[Turgon]

How was this Maiar blood was passed down to Lúthien? If Melian took the form of an Elf then wouldn't that make Lúthien of true elven blood too? Was there a Maia gene? Or was this more of a spiritual legacy?

Thinking back on this question some four years later, I still find the concept of a Maia 'gene' hard to fathom. Why would a spiritual being have a genetic code? Have I learned nothing over the passing years?

 

[YayGollum]

What is difficult for fathoming? These creepily magical (and with magic in your nature, you don't need to make sense) Ainur things take physical forms. I don't remember reading that the physical forms were merely illusions. Therefore, when they put their clothes on, they've got genes.

 

[Turgon]

Sure, but if a Maia takes on a human form, wouldn't that Maia have human genes? If a Maia takes on elven form would it have elven genes? If the Maia takes orcish form, like the Boldog fellow would it not have orcish genes? Well you get the picture. That is what I find confusing about it all.

 

[YayGollum]

The answer to each of your questions is ---> Not necessarily. They are crazy magical thingies. Melian, although looking like some kind of especially pretty (at least according to some standards of beauty) elf, had the genes to stir up some terrifyingly powerful magic, something that most elves can't manage. Hm. But then, that might just raise questions about the nature of magic. I wouldn't think so, though. Seems like different races had different levels of creepiness that they could reach, with Ainur being towards the top.

 

[Bucky]

Sure, but if a Maia takes on a human form, wouldn't that Maia have human genes? If a Maia takes on elven form would it have elven genes? If the Maia takes orcish form, like the Boldog fellow would it not have orcish genes? Well you get the picture. That is what I find confusing about it all.

Well, Melian had to have 'Elvish genes or no Luthien.....

Who's this Boldog fellow? Early Silmarillion or role playing?
It plainly states in HoME that 'lesser spirits' did become a sort of 'super orc' or (actually) 'Orc-captains' who would re-appear after being slain. It would make sense that like Melian, when bound to a 'fleshly' shape that they could reproduce like she did.

But, this opens up a HUGE question that Tolkien himself seems unsure of the answer......

Reading his essays on the Origin of Orcs, it's unclear whether Orcs were 'bastardized' from Elves, Men or a combination of both - one must disregard the simplistic answer given in the Simarillion as Christopher Tolkien himself said in the Introduction that 'A complete consistency is not to be looked for' within it.

One must dig deeper into HoME to attempt (note: attempt, lol) to find a 'consistency'.

Furthur, on the subject of Maiar in flesh, actually, Ainur, we must consider that Tolkien switched back & forth on whether the Valar had children. At first, Eonwe was not 'Herald of Manwe', but his son. Who knows what Tolkien would've done in the final published form?

Another thought: Could Saruman, Radaghast & the (possibly) other fallen Blue Wizards have fathered children? Likely so, as they came in the form of Old Men.

One could almost imagine that Saruman might be the 'man' who mated with the Orcs to create the 'half-Goblins' at Helm's Deep or in Bree......

What a gruesome thought, but had he fallen that far?

Now, at the same time, the spirit of the Ainu or Maia obviously remains within these beings while in physical form......

Tolkien makes that quite clear as we see Saruman's spirit rise out of him upon death & be blown away by a wind from the west. Likewise, Sauron rising out of the abyss after the fall of Numemor. And mostly, Tolkien says there's a strain of Maiar in the descendants of Luthien, so it must be spiritual because JRRT also says Melian became bound to the physical form of an Elf for the 'love' she bore Thingol (i.e., they mated).

 

[YayGollum]

Why is Old Men capitalized? oh well. Yes, I see no reason for why any Ainur who decides to take the form of something that can obtain children wouldn't be able to. And am I crazy for thinking that fathering his own children would have made Saruman a lot less gruesome than getting some Dunlending saps to do it? oh well. He wouldn't have wanted them to grow up with some kind of immunity to his creepy voice power, anyways.

Towards Melian, though, Beren had zero elfish genes, too, and he somehow obtained a child through Luthien. Gasp! By what means? I see no reason for why there couldn't be all kinds of crazy hybrids. Humans and elves work. Orcs, whether they're messed up elves or awesome amalgamations, still somehow work with humans. Giant scary god things work with elves. Seems like sentients work with sentients. Hm. A Warg and giant eagle hybrid... A kind of griffin? Cool. If it makes sense to anyone, I'll make a new character for role-playing!

 

[Illuin]

by Bucky
Who's this Boldog fellow?

He’s and Orc captain in the First Age. He’s mentioned in a few of the HoME books; forgot exactly which ones, being that they're all jumbled together as one big book in my head . Probably one of The Later Silmarillion volumes.


PS - Bucky, you live directly across the Sound from me - I can see the lights of New Haven from the beach, which is a stone's throw (literally) up the road.

 

[Bucky]

Why is Old Men capitalized?

Well, I have this habit I picked up from Tolkien Of capitalizing Men, Orcs, etc.... 'Old Men', I know was a bit much.

I know Tolkien seems to capitalize races when talking about them 'proper', as we were, but not in the sense of 'several men & elve slid down the embankment to avoid the searching eyes of the orcs'.

I've also picked up the nasty habit from Tolkien of the run-on sentence if you've ever read my posts - They seem to go on at times for as long as an entire paragragh, growin, growing, growing, longer, longer and long, with apparently no hope of ever arriving at a concluding thought as they babble on seemingly incoherrently to (some) others, yet, if one would just keep focus and persevere, they will see the end of the race & understand the golden nugget of thought written for them, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow if you will.....

 

[YayGollum]

Got it, about the Old Men thing. Towards the run-on sentence thing, I am also guilty of it. I was muchly appreciative of the confused smilie thing at the end of your last run-on sentence, too, since I couldn't find the pot of gold at the end, either. But Yay for a healthy ego! Not enough nurture the things. But then, I am wondering if you are also looking for the pots of gold in other people's sentences, no matter how long they are. You only really responded to my first question.

 

[Bucky]

And am I crazy for thinking that fathering his own children would have made Saruman a lot less gruesome than getting some Dunlending saps to do it? oh well. He wouldn't have wanted them to grow up with some kind of immunity to his creepy voice power, anyways.


I thought that was a retoracle question......
No, I just think that in answering your question, you're quite right, Yay. Folks would think some 'primitive' Dunlendings would be OK to do it, whereas Saruman being a Maia wouldn't be so kosher. However, in reality, Saruman could've done the job himself in the 18 years after Isengard was last visted......


PS ILLUIN: I actually live 10 miles NW in Shelton, but who ever heard of Shelton?

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

I can understand Thingol in his reluctance to have closer contacts with the Noldor.
First - he had not been eager to cross the seas and follow the others at the time of the great march of the Elves. The beauty of Beleriand was the first "enchantress" he had met even before melian. Melian herself had chosen to dwell in Beleriand and not on the immortal lands.
All of a sudden, there come thousands of elves, ones from another house, all shining with armour, valour and "that" flame in their eyes...
Wouldn't have the much "simpler" king been reluctant to meet them? He would have.

Second - The hosts of the sons of Feanor and those of Fingolfin, coming from the North, were numerous, and accompanied by the first rising of the Moon and the Sun, and the victorious battles in the very first days in ME against melkor and his armies........ That could have given quite a thought to the wise king Elu-Thingol.
To openly state hostility? - Unwise! They are much stronger than me and my scattered and free people!
To openly welcome them? - Why should I?! Soon they might become mightier than me!.
To refuse them as his neighbours - Unwise! They are too many and too strong. Let them now fight the Enemy and his orcs while I, Thingol, will be safe in here!

Those I see as possible and more logical reasons for Thingol's behaviour towards the newcommers.

But ithrynluin, IMO, he did not know anything about the kinslaying. He and his Maia-wife could have possibly sensed there was something wrong.... but as far as it is known, by the time of the first kinslaying there had not been ANY other similar case known among the Eldar. Elved had been killed by Orcs and other creatures and servants of Morgoth, but untill the kinslaying no Elf had ever killed another Elf. Right? Thingol, nor Melian, could not have even guessed that THAT was the main curse and the hidden shame of the Noldor that could be somehow perceived.

Mightier than him?
According to Tolkien himself he was the one of the greatest of all elves and second only to Fëanor