The Skill of the Skin-Changers

[Ancalagon]

I like your theory, though there are some flaws;

And the art of skin-changing is passed down from generation to generation.

Sorry, I cannot conceed that this art was passed via generations, because the race of Men were simply unable to skin-change until Beorn himself. There is no evidence to support this theory at all. This is a talent that only Maia and Elves had the ability to perform. Nowhere in the Histories of Arda have we heard of any Man able to skin-change. Only Beorn, and his direct descendants have managed to successfully change form.

I find it highly impossible as I do not believe that Tolkien would in some ways 'copy' Rudyard Kipling

Why is it so inconcievable that the seed of an idea may be put into the authors mind? Surely Tolkien has drawn from so many sources both literary and mythological to come up with his final masterpiece. Everyone finds inspiration from both likely and unlikely sources, you and I could never prove or disprove this.

The concept that Beorn was of the line of Elros and of the lineage of Beren is certainly possible, however, as I have shown earlier;

Tolkien makes it clear in his letters that Beorn's lifespan was no greater than that of an ordinary Man.

From the Silmarillion;

But to Elros, who chose to be a King of Men, still a great span of years was allotted, many times that of the Men of Middle-earth; and all his line, the kings and lords of the royal house, had long life even according to the measure of the Númenóreans.

So the lifespan of the direct line of Elros was greater than that of ordinary man. So either, he is a direct descendant, blessed with both an ability to skin-change (how?) and longevity of years (No), or he is a distant, diluted descendant, with the normal lifespan of a man and a gene that has strangely missed generation upon generation, that originated in Beren, who never even had the ability to skin-change himself anyway? I find both of these scenarios extremely flawed, so I will stick to my own theory, unless of course you can convince me otherwise.

 

[Gamil Zirak]

I think Beorn learned skin-changing from Radagast the Brown. They both lived in or near Mirkwood forest. Radagast probably had a sweet spot in his heart for Beorn due to their shared love of animals. Gandalf also states that Radagast is a shape changer (or something to that affect) in FoTR. It's possible for men to have magical powers. The Witch King was concidered a great sorceror before he succomed to one of the nine rings. It's conceivable that Beorn came from the mountians and was tought how to change his skin (or shape) by Radagast.

 

[Ancalagon]

I think Beorn learned skin-changing from Radagast the Brown.

Certainly a possibility, though Tolkien doesn't really elaborate on the concept too much. This leads me to believe, that Radaghast, could potentially have known Beorn early in his youth, and only periodically thereafter. Similar to the way Gandalf may have visited the Hobbits, though the way Beorn talks about Radaghast, it isn't with a sense of belonging or real affection that one might give a teacher or friend.

Yet, I believe the hand of Radaghast was at work somewhere, it is just impossible to say where, otherwise why would Gandalf be at pains to mention him at all?

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
I like your theory, though there are some flaws;



Sorry, I cannot conceed that this art was passed via generations, because the race of Men were simply unable to skin-change until Beorn himself. There is no evidence to support this theory at all. This is a talent that only Maia and Elves had the ability to perform. Nowhere in the Histories of Arda have we heard of any Man able to skin-change. Only Beorn, and his direct descendants have managed to successfully change form.



Why is it so inconcievable that the seed of an idea may be put into the authors mind? Surely Tolkien has drawn from so many sources both literary and mythological to come up with his final masterpiece. Everyone finds inspiration from both likely and unlikely sources, you and I could never prove or disprove this.

The concept that Beorn was of the line of Elros and of the lineage of Beren is certainly possible, however, as I have shown earlier;



From the Silmarillion;

So the lifespan of the direct line of Elros was greater than that of ordinary man. So either, he is a direct descendant, blessed with both an ability to skin-change (how?) and longevity of years (No), or he is a distant, diluted descendant, with the normal lifespan of a man and a gene that has strangely missed generation upon generation, that originated in Beren, who never even had the ability to skin-change himself anyway? I find both of these scenarios extremely flawed, so I will stick to my own theory, unless of course you can convince me otherwise.

As I said Ancalagon, it was only a theory and yes, I knew of the flaws, but there was no way I could think of anything to fix them. shiloh53, I believe that that idea is definitely a distict possibility.

 

[Ancalagon]

To quote the good Ulairi

Does this wrap this thread up then?

And I thought I would never see you concede defeat???

 

[Úlairi]

Well, Ancalagon, you provided the proof of which I knew existed. I do not concede defeat, I merely agree with what you have said. I forgot the crucial factor of Radagast, if I had considered it I wouldn't have argued with you Ancalagon. BtW, I have sided with you in the 'Feanor's Fate' thread. Maehdros fails to see that Feanor was great, but it wasn't 'greatness' that drove him on, it was his pride.

 

[Ancalagon]

Well, Ancalagon, you provided the proof of which I knew existed. I do not concede defeat, I merely agree with what you have said.

Ulairi, Ulairi, Ulairi, Ulairi my friend and confidente. You have simply agreed with me because I have offered up the best explanation, backed by the facts. Concede or not, you didn't actually put up an arguement, which disappoints me, because I was told that you were someone to be reckoned with. Sadly I must have been mistaken.

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Ancalagon


Ulairi, Ulairi, Ulairi, Ulairi my friend and confidente. You have simply agreed with me because I have offered up the best explanation, backed by the facts. Concede or not, you didn't actually put up an arguement, which disappoints me, because I was told that you were someone to be reckoned with. Sadly I must have been mistaken.

Oh, I am someone to be reckoned with alright. I have been voted a couple of times as the one of the most knowledgeable members in the 'Great Members' thread that Taran has started up. No, you weren't mistaken about me, but why should I argue against something that I agree with? That would be ridiculous! I will gladly argue with you when the time arises, and I am sure that it will happen soon. Ancalagon, I will fight you, I promise, so do not be disheartened as you were not mistaken about me. As a moderator Ancalagon, I will put this one to you. Could the WB make a forum for us i.e. the intellectuals to battle it out. It would cause a controversy I suppose, so it's best that you disregard my idea. I promise that we will meet again. BtW, who told you that I was 'a force to be reckoned with'? I am curious. Was it Grond?

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Where is this thread Ulairi?

 

[Úlairi]

It is in the 'Member Announcements Forum', go check it out Beleg. Ancalagon, I am still awaiting an answer.

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Thanks Ulairi.

 

[Úlairi]

No problem Beleg!

 

[Grond]

It certainly wasn't me Ulari. I simply told Anc that you would probably be good to eat or that if he wasn't hungry, I would turn you into smushed wraith.

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
It certainly wasn't me Ulari. I simply told Anc that you would probably be good to eat or that if he wasn't hungry, I would turn you into smushed wraith.

Well then, I guess Grond doesn't think too highly of me!

 

[Grond]

No Ulari, I think you are an admirable adversary and very knowledgeable, as well. But... you can be a tad bit over confident at times. You would be better served to let your knowledge do the talking.

 

[Úlairi]

Yes, I agree with you, I am over-confident at times and I apologise for it.

 

[Celebthôl]

Beorn

ok he was called a man and lived as a man (he died at like 70-80 oe sumthing) yet he could change into a bear y and how? and who did he marry to give him his childeren? and how did he desend from bears?

Celeb

 

[Maeglin]

I wish I could help you, but I'm not really sure right now, I think there is a quote in the Hobbit somewhere,I'll look it up and post it later for ya.

 

[Eriol]

Sorry, but I think this won't help you much I've read more Tolkien than most people, though not as much as some esteemed loremasters in this forum, and I never saw any explanation on the status and "genetic upbringing" of the Beornings -- not in the Letters, nor in the most well-known works (The Hobbit, LotR, Sil, UT). Maybe in the History of Middle-Earth...

All I know is that they are related to the Rohirrim and to the men of Dale, being, as them, "Men of the Twilight": related to the Dúnedain, but who didn't cross the Blue Mountains in the First Age nor go to Númenor. As for their shapechanging ability, I think it is just one more fantastic element in M-E. Remember, when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, it was supposed to be a children's tale, without need of any lengthy explanations. In our world's legends, shapechangers were accursed men or fabulous beasts (meaning, Beorn is actually a bear that can assume the shape of a man), but this is obviously not so with Tolkien's myth. I, for one, can't very well incorporate the shapechangers with the basic myth as explained in The Silmarillion.

Hope this was useful, see ya!

 

[Maeglin]

If I may say so, Mr. Eriol "I've read more Tolkien than most people" was wrong about saying that there is not quote, for I have found it, here it is for you celeb.

Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the north. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale.

I hope that helps a little celeb.