The Two Glorfindels!!

Grond · Dec 31, 2001

Originally posted by Son_of_Grond
If the ring was a matter of men and not elves, then why did the elves (Elrond in particular) bestow a hobbit as ringbearer. Granted, he was reluctant to do so, but if it was a matter of men why not give the responsibility to Aragorn?

Wait, wait, wait...I know what your answer will be...the elves thought men were weak and had little trust in them, especially after the Isildur debacle. But if it wasn't a matter of elves and they weren't going to participate in the ensuing war, then WHY was the ring a concern of theirs at all? What gave them the right to choose the fate of the ring if they weren't gonna get their hands dirty. Sneaky little buggers, those elves...

So, with that...dear father, you can take that opinion of yours and shove it up your Grond-like arse. <-- note winky

First off everyone, this is my real son. And he doesn't much care for his dad's opinions either, so he will get along with everyone very well in the movie forum.

To answer your question, oh Son of Grond, Hobbits are, according to the author, of Man. They are not a race of their own. So bestowing the quest upon Frodo was placing it back in the hands of Man. I may have misrepresented my thoughts in my previous post. What I was trying to convey was that I think Elrond and the other wise among the Eldar had decided that the fate of the Ring lay with Man. They were far sighted and could see different paths into the future. They could see things that have been, will be, could have been or might be. But, for whatever reason you believe, the facts are that they (the Eldar) did not play a significant role in the final conflict between Sauron and Middle-earth.

As for why the Ring was a concern of theirs.... at that point in Middle-earth history, the Eldar and Istari with input from others of the Wise, had dominion over Middle-earth via the power of the Elven rings. At least that's the way I read the Author's writings on the subject. But I could be misinterpreting stuff or just be outright wrong.

Snaga · Dec 31, 2001

I just started reading the Hobbit to my son. If this is where it leads maybe I'll try Harry Potter instead!

Ragnarok · Dec 31, 2001

The matter of the Ring was not for Men alone! Elrond says himself its for 'all peoples of Middle Earth.' All peoples includes Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits, and everyone else. Glorfindel might not have been fighting with Aragorn but remember Sauron sent his forces to other places in Middle Earth, not just Minas Tirith. He could have been the hero at one of those battles.

Pops · Dec 31, 2001

Originally posted by Grond
First off everyone, this is my real son. And he doesn't much care for his dad's opinions either, so he will get along with everyone very well in the movie forum.

Aw, heck...I care for your opinions, it's just too much fun to argue with you and watch you get all flustered and red in the face.

To answer your question, oh Son of Grond, Hobbits are, according to the author, of Man. They are not a race of their own. So bestowing the quest upon Frodo was placing it back in the hands of Man. I may have misrepresented my thoughts in my previous post. What I was trying to convey was that I think Elrond and the other wise among the Eldar had decided that the fate of the Ring lay with Man. They were far sighted and could see different paths into the future. They could see things that have been, will be, could have been or might be. But, for whatever reason you believe, the facts are that they (the Eldar) did not play a significant role in the final conflict between Sauron and Middle-earth.

As for why the Ring was a concern of theirs.... at that point in Middle-earth history, the Eldar and Istari with input from others of the Wise, had dominion over Middle-earth via the power of the Elven rings. At least that's the way I read the Author's writings on the subject. But I could be misinterpreting stuff or just be outright wrong.

My question was loaded...with crap. I really was pulling stuff out of my arse just to give you the aforementioned red face. I don't argue with you on Tolkien stuff.

When are you shipping me Silmarillion?

pgt · Jan 3, 2002

Not that it directly relates to the ring, but the Elves did mingle in the affairs of men when it suited them. The same Glorfindel himself, who later snubbed Aragorn w/ his absence in ROTK (before I'm flamed - I'm being fecitious) led the host out of Imladris to assist with the defeat of the Witch King in the III age.

Later in the III age, Boromir says that the Elrond/Imladris power lies not in military strength but wisdom and advice. Now where would he have gotten an idea like that considering their one major interaction with Imladris was with a host of elves? That one really strikes me as a non-sequiter.

"...at that point in Middle-earth history, the Eldar and Istari with input from others of the Wise, had dominion over Middle-earth via the power of the Elven rings. At least that's the way I read the Author's writings on the subject. But I could be misinterpreting stuff or just be outright wrong." While I'm not disagreeing, I wonder if some some of the prouder men of Gondor such as Denethor and Boromir would entirely agree.

Grond · Jan 3, 2002

pgt, your interpretation is probably as accurate as any. The Power of the Elven Rings kept both Imladris and Lorien as places where time moved slower for the Eldar. While only hours passed for them, days and months passed outside. (Remember the Fellowships confusion with time there). This kept their little corner of the world pure and unsullied by the outside changes.

At the same time, they most likely did hold dominion over M-e. (ie. The White Council). But, add to all this the mass departure of elves moving from East to West and you will see from the writings, that the Elves were already dwindling as a presence on Middle-earth. More and more of the kindred tired of Middle-earth and departed to Aman. I feel this depletion of population illustrates why there were no significant Elf forces sent to aid Aragorn in his battles. There were only enough to protect their own domain.

I don't have the texts in front of me, but I believe they would support my assertions. (I will look tonight). BTW, does anyone remember Bilbo or Frodo ever meeting elves in any of the books when they were headed east? It seems they were always going towards the Havens. But, again, messages would always end up reaching Rivendell before the parties. Another mystery!!

Cian · Jan 3, 2002

Glorfindel was sent (back) to aid Gil-galad and Elrond, and his place was with Elrond I think. Rivendell was likely an ultimate target of the enemy at least, though it lay farther behind the line of the West (so to speak), and indeed had become a refuge of lore, healing & rest & etc. Gandalf states in The Quest for Erebor that: "I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough, was his original plan."

In the Appendices Gandalf extolled the virtues of the battles in the North (albeit concentrating on Dale and the Dwarves, the Dragon problem ...) noting that there might have been dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell, no Queen in Gondor.

Swords might have been needed there still, as they were in Lórien, though Elrond allowed his very sons to Gondor. Just my take.

Curufin · Jan 3, 2002

I haven't read "The history of middle-earth". Only The sil.
I haven't seen THOM-E in sweden(where I live)

Tar-Palantir · Jan 3, 2002

"PS: on an unrelated topic, how did Elrond select Legolas anyway? I doubt he had ever met Legolas prior to the big powwow. He had plenty of noble and capable elves right in Rivendell (we met one and others were mentioned). In fact I never felt like there was much of ANY relationship between Rivendell and N. Mirkwood prior to the big powwow. Then sudenly out of nowhere Elrond gives the token elf slot to an 'outsider' elf? (maybe he just figured it was a suicide mission - just kidding!!!) I like Legolas - I really do - heckuva horsemen (did they have horses up in the forest?), heckuva mariner, having again grown up in the woods. But that bow of his was oh so wicked." - pgt

In "The Ring Goes South", Elrond states that Legolas and Gimli "are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond." But you do bring up an interesting point: if Elrond wanted the number of the Company to be Nine, at that point he wasn't guaranteeing that it was gonna be "Nine" for very long was he?

Cian · Jan 3, 2002

Originally posted by pgt
Same goes for Thanduil's crew up north (though I'm not sure I always seem to seriously include them with the Eldar in my mind, Logolas excepted)

If you mean were Thranduil's folk considered "Eldar" then I'd say yes for the most part. I'm talking about Tolkien's more detailed divisions of the Quendi that we find in HoMe and UT of course ~ in these (& V. generally speaking!) the thing seems to be the Silvans (Tawarwaith) of Mirkwood and Lórien appear to be in origin Eldar (Teleri), and so remote kin of the Sindar. Thranduil was a migrant Sinda of course, and into this mix likely some Avari.

Cian · Jan 3, 2002

Originally posted by Grond
The Power of the Elven Rings kept both Imladris and Lorien as places where time moved slower for the Eldar. While only hours passed for them, days and months passed outside. (Remember the Fellowships confusion with time there). This kept their little corner of the world pure and unsullied by the outside changes.

I think the effects of time were slowed, not the actual time ratio, if that's what you mean O Hammer

pgt · Jan 3, 2002

Oh no please don't bother to look that up - but thanks! I thoroughly agree their strength in #s had long been waning and many times throughout the books they are moving ever westwards and forsaking ME. Aside from Thranduils entaglement at Erebor, Glorfindals force was perhaps the last serious expedition on their part. My only point was that he had ventured out well beyond the ford and perhaps recently by the way Elves measure time. Merely that (ROTK excepted) he did indeed 'get out and about'.

I also just mentioned this as they were indeed involved in mens affairs (albeit w/ mutual interest) at least once in a significant way since the great alliance/ring episode.

Yet the topic of Elves abandoning the affairs of men is an interesting one. It's a mixed bag and the more I think about it the more I see points that definately go both ways with varying yet valid perspectives.

I've not read HOME or UT. I'm curious just how valuable or how much they extend information already presented regarding the II age and especially the III age found in the ROTK appendices or Silmarillion? For example I know very little about Thranduil's folks - can notably more information be found there?

pgt · Jan 3, 2002

Cian, thanks (I think ) for the info on the Mirkwood elves. They always confused me as to their lineage. I 'thought' there was a specific passage somewhere maybe in Sil that addressed them in a minor way - but boy that's been a long time - haven't read the older stuff in Sil in a very long time.

I tend to agree w/ Grond's point on how time appears to move slowly in Lorien while at a normal rate on the outside. This is alluded to at Rivendell but in Grond's Lorien example most members of the Fellowship lose track of the date while there. (Doesn't Aragorn correct them on the actual time that passed while they were there?)

Arathin · Jan 3, 2002

Forgive me if I am baring in pgt, but about Legolas. You see none of the Rivendell Elves were exactly volantring to go. a)Legolas wanted to go. b)Legolas is the prince of Mirkwood. So he was a very good choice on Elrond's part. I also would have liked it if Glor had gone to help Aragorn, but we also have look at the fact that Elrond didn't send Aragorn's people. Galadriel did. Elrond's sons, Elrohir and Elladan, were basicly Dunedain anyways. I never thought Elrond really sent anyone to help other than the Nine Walkers. I would also like to add that although Elrond never mentioned that he knew. What parent doesn't really know when their child is in love? I think they had already told everyone. They did get married right after the war was over.

pgt · Jan 3, 2002

Welcome Arathin and well said. Can you elaborate on Galadrial? I only recall that Aragorn summoned his kin (not the sons of Elrond) in his thoughts. Did she relay that? Sounds familiar but I don't recall specifically. The sons of Elrond were there (almost as an afterthought?) specifically because they 'wanted to go to war' if memory serves. Thanks

Arathin · Jan 4, 2002

Well pgt, Elrond's sons are almost part of Aragorn's people because they basicly live as (and with) the Rangers.
On the topic of Glorfindel. I too was disapointed that he didn't come with the Rangers, but (and I forget who said this before) Sauron didn't only attack Minas Trith. He sent his arms everywhere really. Just most of his forces were fighting MT. The Rangers went south because (if you recall) they first came from that land. Hence, Aragorn is the rightful king. I think if they didn't already belong to that land, then none of them, not even Aragorn, would have come. The sons of Elrond, in this case, went with to avenge what the Orcs had done to their mother, Celebrian. (And because they were "youths" who only look for glory on the battle field.

Namarie! Nai hiruvalye Valimar!
Nai elye hiruva. Namarie!

Arathin · Jan 4, 2002

Sorry I forgot about Galadriel in that last post.
As for her, the Elven ring she wears is the ring of the mind, I guess you would say. Her "mirror" only works because of the ring. She can look into people's minds with the ring, and "speak" to them or "show" them things that they desire. Deep hidden things. Like when the Company meets her, she looks into the mind of each, and offers or shows them something to test their loyalty to the Company and its mission. She knows that Aragorn wants his people because she is "looking after" him as the betrothed to her grand-daughter. She might have, on the other hand with Elrond's sons, requested that they go with the Rangers. It also might have been that they had a closer relationship with Aragorn and his people than anyother Elf, including Glor and Elrond, excluding Arwen.

Wood Elf · Feb 22, 2002

Glorfindel..

Now in the Sil, Glorfindel fights at the fifth battle, and later on is killed in a fight with a balrog. How does he appear at the ford in F.o.t.R if he died back in the Sil? Is this explained somewhere? Is this one of 'Tolkien's mysteries'?

Ancalagon · Feb 22, 2002

Tolkien never planned the insertion of Glorfindel at Flight To The Ford with the same intention he had included him in Silmarillion. However some information can be gleaned from Return of the Shadow (Home) that may shed a little light on the matter.
Christopher Tolkien wrote;

Some notes that were scribbled down at Sidmouth in Devon in the late summer of 1938 (Biography, p. 187) on a page of doodles evidently represent my father's thoughts for the next stages of the story at this time:

Very notable is "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin". Years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote: "[The use of Glorfindel] in LoTR is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as the Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings." He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II. 192-4, IV.145), and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age.

There is nothing else definitive that I can find though others may be able to shed further light on the subject.

Camille · Feb 22, 2002

However some information can be gleaned from Return of the Shadow (Home) that may shed a little light on the matter.

hello Ancalagon, just a question by HOME what do you mean??

And about the Glorfindel subject something is said in the book of lost tales part 2 : The fall of Gondolin, there is a tale full in details about the fall of gondolin and at the end there are a lot of notes from Cristopher tolkien I will check them and I will post them
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