The Undying lands of Valinor really was the United States?

[WizardKing]

i think the jrr tolkein meant for the undying lands of valinor to be teh undying lands, see if you look at it this way, tolkiens time everyone who was someone was leaving Europe(Middle Earth) and leaving thier shores for the undying lands Valinor(America), you see the comparison, as with Harad being south of ME also representing Africa? I see what he meant for the near similarities. Let me know your feedback?

 

[Brent]

I don't think so. You see JRRT was well versed in Norse and Anglo Saxon lore and myth and he wanted to write an "English" mythology - in English Myth tradition there has always been "the fortunate isles" which lie to the west across the see as well as Avalon

 

[WizardKing]

you have a point!

but were the people of avalon elves as well , so i get your point, but i would like you to educated on the lore of avalon, if possible a quick summary, i know it had something to do with king arthur, but were elves involved. please fill me in?

 

[Húrin Thalion]

Tolkien's works were not an allegory and cannot be applied that way, also he did not see the U.S.A. as any kind of Valinor, the blessed realm was forever emoved from it's circles.

Húrin Thalion

 

[ms Greenleaf]

Could it not be canada in my opinion the united states is too industrialized-- there government to interested inEarthbounmd things (money to be the home of elves Actually speaking of their government it might use this idea as a to do with the battle on terrism. which is stupid but might get votes

 

[LoreMaster]

When Numenor was destroyed and Aman removed from the circles of the world, the Silmarillion, I believe, says that new lands were created. The same part of the Silmarillion also mentions what was called the Empty Lands. The existence of the Americas could be explained through the creation of those new lands. It may even be that at least part of the Empty Lands became the New World. I know nothing of the Empty Lands, and all I know of the new lands is that they were mortal, so I'm just guessing here.

 

[ms Greenleaf]

So it could be Canada

 

[Arvedui]

It could very well be the US, especially cinsidering the fact that it is now removed from the rest of the world......

(Or should that be estranged?)

If it was so, would Tony Blair be Gandalf or Saruman?

 

[Brent]

Re: you have a point!

Originally posted by WizardKing
but were the people of avalon elves as well , so i get your point, but i would like you to educated on the lore of avalon, if possible a quick summary, i know it had something to do with king arthur, but were elves involved. please fill me in?

If your refering to my post then yes and no. Avalon is associated with King Arthur and one of the candidates is the English town of Glastonbury. Some traditions say Arthur was taken there heavily wounded by the lady of the lake (Galadriel type figure). In ancient times both Glastonbury and Ely (in cambridgeshire) were in the middle of fens which is why they are refered to as "isles" getting through the fens wasn't easy. But there are older stories and traditions of the Fortunate Isles in the far west (NOT Ireland) where the undying live, if there were long narrative tales of this place they are lost.
Tolkien mourned the loss of old english narrative myth, so he created his own based on its traditions.

 

[Aulë]

Blah! USA is anything BUT the Undying Lands....More like Mordor!

 

[LoreMaster]

I'm getting the idea that perhaps there's anti-U.S.A. sentiment among some of you. Could you please focus on the subject at hand rather than criticizing my country?

 

[ms Greenleaf]

not anti us so much as I do not beleive that a country that is so concerned with money could be elvish,,,

 

[Beleg]

This to me sounds like a pure fib. With all due respects Valinor is far from USA or Canada or from any country. Valinor is more based on the concept of Heaven , although disliking allegory Tolkien has change the concepts according to his own liking and manner.
i dont think Tolkien had any country in mind while he was writing. Well he might have got snippets of thinking power while watching beautiful sceneries but he i think never meant to imply that Valinor was like any country.

 

[morello13]

i believe tolkien had some writings saying that tol eressea came to england after eriol

 

[Éomond]

Originally posted by Pippin_Took
Blah! USA is anything BUT the Undying Lands....More like Mordor!

Hehe, yeah, you're probably right!

I'm getting the idea that perhaps there's anti-U.S.A. sentiment among some of you. Could you please focus on the subject at hand rather than criticizing my country?

It's my country too, and I do think the here (the USA) is a very dangerous and gross country, but I still love it and it mostly is a great country, but I'm getting off-topic.

But anyway, to Pippin_Took suggestion, the US couldn't have been Mordor, it's not arcoss the sea and to the west.

 

[HobbitGirl]

Originally posted by LoreMaster
When Numenor was destroyed and Aman removed from the circles of the world, the Silmarillion, I believe, says that new lands were created. The same part of the Silmarillion also mentions what was called the Empty Lands. The existence of the Americas could be explained through the creation of those new lands. It may even be that at least part of the Empty Lands became the New World. I know nothing of the Empty Lands, and all I know of the new lands is that they were mortal, so I'm just guessing here.

This is totally right. The Simarillion says that after Aman was removed from the circles of the world Men still sailed west looking for the island of Meneltarma, and

...those that sailed far came only to the new lands, and found them like the old lands, and subject to death. And those that sailed farthest set but a girdle about the Earth and returned weary at last to the place of thier beggining; and they said, "All roads are now bent."