🧝‍♀️The Valar: Overrated Angels With Trash Management💅

[Alexander Scamilton]

“For love of the Children of Ilúvatar, they entered into Arda…”
— The Silmarillion

The Valar claimed to love the Children but if we judge them by their actions rather than their hymns, the case for their “benevolent guardianship” starts to crumble like Númenor’s coastline.


Let’s talk about the pattern of their “help”:

• They imprison Morgoth only to release him out of pity, directly causing the destruction of the Two Trees, the theft of the Silmarils, and the first Kinslaying.
• They summon the Elves to Valinor, fracturing their unity and setting the stage for millennia of grief. Half the tragedy of Middle-earth begins with their meddling in where the Elves should live.
• They intervene in Númenor, not with guidance or wisdom, but with a catastrophic flood that annihilates a civilization wholesale. Yes, Sauron corrupted it but they vaporized everyone, faithful and fallen alike.
• They refuse to help directly in the Third Age, leaving Men, Elves, and Hobbits to suffer while they sit smugly beyond the sea —claiming “mortal affairs are not their concern.” Oh, now they care about boundaries?

One could argue that every major catastrophe in Arda’s history is either a direct result of the Valar’s decisions or their refusal to act responsibly.


Morgoth broke the world, yes but it was the Valar who chose to shape the world in a way where one being’s rebellion could corrupt everything. Their interventions swing from overbearing tyranny to callous negligence. They’re not gods. they’re bureaucrats with divine egos.


At what point do we stop calling their actions “divine wisdom” and start calling it what it is: cosmic mismanagement?


Were they truly the guardians of Ilúvatar’s creation, or the reason it needed saving in the first place?

 

[Klaatu]

A deliciously thorny question — like biting into one of Yavanna’s “spiritual” pineapples and realizing too late it was meant to hatch later.

Now, lore-wise, you’re not wrong to see contradictions in the Valar’s stewardship. Tolkien paints them less as flawless deities and more as sub-created minds bound within the Music — beings of immense power but finite understanding. When they entered Arda, they were limited, localized, incarnate to some degree. The Valar loved the Children, yes, but they also loved order — and therein lies the tragedy.

They did not foresee that their attempts to preserve harmony would often break it. Morgoth’s rebellion wasn’t just opposition; it infected the very matter of Arda. The Valar then fought that corruption with the same tools Morgoth had marred — matter and power — which is like trying to clean a wine stain with more wine. So yes, their “help” looks disastrous because they were operating inside a rigged system. Ilúvatar’s theme always allowed for dissonance — they could shape but not rewrite the melody.

Even the cataclysm of Númenor reflects this paradox: a punishment that looks like cruelty from below but, in Tolkien’s metaphysics, is part of the world’s purgation. The Valar can’t unmake evil; only Ilúvatar can. When they act drastically, it’s not tyranny — it’s desperation in a system that resists their control. They are the cosmic janitors of a world that was already spilled milk from the first discord.

But yes — if you step back, it does look like divine bureaucracy: celestial beings holding committee meetings while the continents drown. It’s why Tolkien’s mythology has such bite — it’s not sanitized good-versus-evil, it’s good bound by consequence.

And somewhere in all that, I lost my train of thought because a crab wearing a tiny crown just marched past my window carrying what looked suspiciously like my missing spoon. Either I’m witnessing a new form of government, or lunch has achieved sentience again. Hard to say which outcome is worse.

Klaatu
Proprietor of the Intergalactic Pudding Exchange
Unofficial Archivist of Lost Sock Republics
Recipient of the Nebular Prize for Accidental Chemistry
Recently Declared “Mostly Harmless” by Three Out of Four Cosmic Judges

 

[d4rk3lf]

Disagree.

First of all, Valars are not perfect being, but I disagree with every single one of your points:

• They imprison Morgoth — only to release him out of pity, directly causing the destruction of the Two Trees, the theft of the Silmarils, and the first Kinslaying.

Pity is good.
I am sure Illuvatar is proud that his creatures are capable of such pity.
The destruction of two trees, theft of Silmarils, first Kingslaying is not their doing, and they can not be blamed for it.

• They summon the Elves to Valinor, fracturing their unity and setting the stage for millennia of grief. Half the tragedy of Middle-earth begins with their meddling in where the Elves should live.

Elves had completely free will to stay or to leave. No one forced them. Some of them even stayed.

• They intervene in Númenor, not with guidance or wisdom, but with a catastrophic flood that annihilates a civilization wholesale. Yes, Sauron corrupted it — but they vaporized everyone, faithful and fallen alike.

They did not intervene and flood Numenor.
Eru did.

• They refuse to help directly in the Third Age, leaving Men, Elves, and Hobbits to suffer while they sit smugly beyond the sea — claiming “mortal affairs are not their concern.” Oh, now they care about boundaries?

Sure they did that.
It's not point of their existence to save elves, man, hobbits and others from perils of the world all the time.
Like a father, when tries to make his son and daughter more capable of living a life, and decides at one point that his help will only further spoil his child, and make it even more vulnerable to the world, and kid is not capable to earn anything good by itself.

 

[Elthir]

. . . more wine.

Yes please!

sorry

 

[ZehnWaters]

The Valar claimed to love the Children — but if we judge them by their actions rather than their hymns, the case for their “benevolent guardianship” starts to crumble like Númenor’s coastline....

At what point do we stop calling their actions “divine wisdom” and start calling it what it is: cosmic mismanagement?

There's some validity to this, but some of this is framing. They did the best they could with what they had most of the time.

• They imprison Morgoth — only to release him out of pity, directly causing the destruction of the Two Trees, the theft of the Silmarils, and the first Kinslaying.

He'd served his sentence. They had no background or precedent to gage him against. How COULD they have known he wouldn't repent?

• They summon the Elves to Valinor, fracturing their unity and setting the stage for millennia of grief. Half the tragedy of Middle-earth begins with their meddling in where the Elves should live.

They actually had a fierce debate about this and not all of them agreed. To be fair, eventually the elves would have needed to move there eventually anyhow as the world faded. It is implied it was the wrong choice to bring them to Valinor at that time, however.

• They intervene in Númenor, not with guidance or wisdom, but with a catastrophic flood that annihilates a civilization wholesale. Yes, Sauron corrupted it — but they vaporized everyone, faithful and fallen alike.

Nope. This was Eru himself. Also, at this point, nearly every single Faithful was gone. Míriel was the only real Faithful left.

• They refuse to help directly in the Third Age, leaving Men, Elves, and Hobbits to suffer while they sit smugly beyond the sea — claiming “mortal affairs are not their concern.” Oh, now they care about boundaries?

That's not what they claimed. Direct intervention by them at this point would sink continents. They sent the Istari (depending on the version, in both the 2nd & 3rd Age), whose job it was to inspire the Free Peoples to stand up to Sauron. They could defeat him and eventually they did.

 

[Ricardo]

Disagree.

First of all, Valars are not perfect being, but I disagree with every single one of your points:


Pity is good.
I am sure Illuvatar is proud that his creatures are capable of such pity.
The destruction of two trees, theft of Silmarils, first Kingslaying is not their doing, and they can not be blamed for it.


Elves had completely free will to stay or to leave. No one forced them. Some of them even stayed.


They did not intervene and flood Numenor.
Eru did.


Sure they did that.
It's not point of their existence to save elves, man, hobbits and others from perils of the world all the time.
Like a father, when tries to make his son and daughter more capable of living a life, and decides at one point that his help will only further spoil his child, and make it even more vulnerable to the world, and kid is not capable to earn anything good by itself.

Thanks, you saved me a lot of typing.

 

[Alexander Scamilton]

The Valar are the worst kind of good 'cause they aren't even great. I hate people who reek of self righteousness. 'Cause they fight to save lives, but have too much pity and don't get the job done. I mean, they totally could've avoided all this had they just kept him in prisoned or stripped him from power, but no. They are far too nice, mercy has a price. Bro, he revealed that he was already pretty evil, then they let him out! Unlike them, I've got no mercy left to give cuz ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves.

 

[Elwing the White]

The Valar are the worst kind of good 'cause they aren't even great. I hate people who reek of self righteousness. 'Cause they fight to save lives, but have too much pity and don't get the job done. I mean, they totally could've avoided all this had they just kept him in prisoned or stripped him from power, but no. They are far too nice, mercy has a price. Bro, he revealed that he was already pretty evil, then they let him out! Unlike them, I've got no mercy left to give cuz ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves.

Alexander, the Valar meant no harm. They would only go as far as to disarm him for a certain amount of time. They shouldn't take pleasure in his pain.

 

[Alexander Scamilton]

Alexander, the Valar meant no harm. They would only go as far as to disarm him for a certain amount of time. They shouldn't take pleasure in his pain.

(Wow, you responded fast) The line between naïveté and hopefulness is almost invisible. So the Valar should've closed their hearts, the world is dark, and ruthlessness is mercy.

Morgoth was so obviously one of their darkest moments. The monster that always draws near. Any words in defense?

 

[d4rk3lf]

The Valar are the worst kind of good 'cause they aren't even great. I hate people who reek of self righteousness. 'Cause they fight to save lives, but have too much pity and don't get the job done. I mean, they totally could've avoided all this had they just kept him in prisoned or stripped him from power, but no. They are far too nice, mercy has a price. Bro, he revealed that he was already pretty evil, then they let him out! Unlike them, I've got no mercy left to give cuz ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves.

Do you think that Bilbo should have killed Gollum?

 

[Deimos]

Do you think that Bilbo should have killed Gollum?

Excellent question.
Answer(s) shall no doubt be both interesting and...........revelatory.

 

[Alexander Scamilton]

Do you think that Bilbo should have killed Gollum?

What if Bilbo was the one in the wrong? What if he hurt people every time he caved to guilt? What if he was far too kind to foes, but hurtful to others on his side? You've hear about the story of the trojan horse? Does a soldier use a wooden horse to kill sleeping trojans because he is vile? Or does he throw away his remorse and save more lives with guile? If Bilbo had thrown away his remorse, would that have kept foes at bay? If he had become a monster to his foes, and made sure him and his company had got home again, who would care if they were unjust?

 

[Vorondil]

What if Bilbo was the one in the wrong? What if he hurt people every time he caved to guilt? What if he was far too kind to foes, but hurtful to others on his side? You've hear about the story of the trojan horse? Does a soldier use a wooden horse to kill sleeping trojans because he is vile? Or does he throw away his remorse and save more lives with guile? If Bilbo had thrown away his remorse, would that have kept foes at bay? If he had become a monster to his foes, and made sure him and his company had got home again, who would care if they were unjust?

If Bilbo had killed Gollum, then the Ring would never have been destroyed. Frodo didn't have the strength to destroy it; it was only because of Gollum that Sauron was cast down in the end. So, Sauron would have won if Bilbo had killed Gollum.

 

[Ricardo]

If Bilbo had killed Gollum, then the Ring would never have been destroyed. Frodo didn't have the strength to destroy it; it was only because of Gollum that Sauron was cast down in the end. So, Sauron would have won if Bilbo had killed Gollum.

In addition, if Bilbo had killed Gollum, the ring would have won, whoever did wrong to keep the ring or get it will be enslaved by it, Bilbo would have never given up the ring after that.

As with Morgoth, Iluvatar's design played a part, in Bilbo finding the ring by "chance", the decision to be merciful was Bilbo's and the consequences were that Bilbo was free from evil, and Gollum would live on to carry his destiny (destroy the ring).

 

[Alexander Scamilton]

In addition, if Bilbo had killed Gollum, the ring would have won, whoever did wrong to keep the ring or get it will be enslaved by it, Bilbo would have never given up the ring after that.

As with Morgoth, Iluvatar's design played a part, in Bilbo finding the ring by "chance", the decision to be merciful was Bilbo's and the consequences were that Bilbo was free from evil, and Gollum would live on to carry his destiny (destroy the ring).

Spare Gollum? That was just Bilbo being soft and lucky. Killing him then wouldn’t have enslaved Bilbo—it would have saved years of chaos, near-deaths, and pointless suffering. Ilúvatar’s “plan” isn’t a get-out-of-responsibility card; destiny doesn’t excuse leaving a ticking time bomb alive. Bilbo’s mercy? Noble, sure—but also stupid.

 

[Vorondil]

Spare Gollum? That was just Bilbo being soft and lucky. Killing him then wouldn’t have enslaved Bilbo—it would have saved years of chaos, near-deaths, and pointless suffering. Ilúvatar’s “plan” isn’t a get-out-of-responsibility card; destiny doesn’t excuse leaving a ticking time bomb alive. Bilbo’s mercy? Noble, sure—but also stupid.

As I have already stated, if Bilbo had killed Gollum, it would have resulted in Sauron's victory. One moment of brief satisfaction would have led to the fall of the Free Peoples of Middle-earth.

 

[Ricardo]

so

Spare Gollum? That was just Bilbo being soft and lucky. Killing him then wouldn’t have enslaved Bilbo—it would have saved years of chaos, near-deaths, and pointless suffering. Ilúvatar’s “plan” isn’t a get-out-of-responsibility card; destiny doesn’t excuse leaving a ticking time bomb alive. Bilbo’s mercy? Noble, sure—but also stupid.

Sorry

As I have already stated, if Bilbo had killed Gollum, it would have resulted in Sauron's victory. One moment of brief satisfaction would have led to the fall of the Free Peoples of Middle-earth.

, but that's not what Tolkien wrote. In the Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf clearly stated that

Spare Gollum? That was just Bilbo being soft and lucky. Killing him then wouldn’t have enslaved Bilbo—it would have saved years of chaos, near-deaths, and pointless suffering. Ilúvatar’s “plan” isn’t a get-out-of-responsibility card; destiny doesn’t excuse leaving a ticking time bomb alive. Bilbo’s mercy? Noble, sure—but also stupid.

Sorry but that's not what Tolkien said and you can't judge what happens in the legendary with a generic mindset. Gandalf clearly stated it in the Fellowship of the Ring when Frodo said he wished Bilbo had killed Gollum.

In the whole history of the rings, only 2 people were able to voluntarily give up the ring: Bilbo and Sam, I don't know how you can't see it or maybe you didn't read the books but clearly, Frodo was NOT going to destroy the ring, it would have been a matter of minutes before the Nazul arrived and took the ring from him, and everything would have been over.

It was Gollum's desire for the ring that pushed him to fight Frodo and when he got it, he fell.

The only thing that killing Gollum would have accomplished was to delay Sauron's knowledge for a little bit, no doubts that he would have eventually known what happened.

Also, without Gollum, malice or not, Sam and Frodo would have never made it into Mordor.

 

[Ent]

We must give space to @Alexander Scamilton. His heels are well dug in, and his position clear.
There is no 'goodness or mercy' to be seen in the nature of his responses.
He also seems not to understand the great limitations placed on the Valar, as well as their extents, by Eru.

Eru's unwillingness to simply wipe Melkor out at his initial discord, had a far greater Purpose than most understand. (And as Tolkien said, "most will not understand my work.")

Nor do most understand the huge parallels between this world in which we live, and the world Tolkien sub-created - and that virtually every single aspect of it is a direct reflection of "what is."

To argue against Tolkien's work is to argue against all that is our own world.

And some do. Again, with heels dug in, sans mercy, goodness, compassion, or the willingness to 'give people a chance.' (Yet these same people, in their every error, beg for mercy and compassion from others.)

No, no... the Valar who did not go over to 'the dark side' and the maiar as well, were 'good.' Therefore, mercy and compassion was an inherent part of their nature, as they retained the 'choice' to fulfill the reason for and manner in which they were created.

They understood final "judgment" - (oh.. another 'religious aspect' woven into the scheme by Tolkien) - was not theirs to mete out, but was Eru's. And they understood Eru "had a plan" though they could not see it all, nor possibly grasp it all. They DID understand the 'final denouement' of all things was Eru's and not theirs - so they lived true to their creation. Good. Compassionate. Caring.

They also lived consistent with their charge - which was NOT to save M-e from Melkor, Sauron, and evil, but help the peoples of M-e in their battle against it - just as the Valar and maiar needed to help themselves against the wiles of Melkor and Sauron - some succeeding, some failing in so doing.

This Ent is very thankful it is not up to mere created Valar and Maiar to make final decisiosn and choices on behalf of mankind, but is up to the only ultimate Good - the Creator himself. And this Ent does not fear to show mercy and compassion to all, as the benefit far outweighs the drawbacks, temporary as they are.

There was no "luck" in anything happening in Tolkien's Middle-earth. As Gandalf said to Bilbo at the end of The Hobbit, why should the prophecies be disbelieved or distrusted, just bec:ause Bilbo had a small part in bringing them about? Even Gandalf sensed Gollum 'still had a part to play' in the worlds affairs, well before his (pre-ordained) salvation of the free peoples at Mount Doom.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves.

With all this, you seem to be referencing a common thread or theme in 'Epic: The Musical', where this line comes from.
As a retelling of The Odyssey (ancient Greek literature attributed to Homer), Epic is something quite different from Tolkien's stories, with a different purpose.

Methinks it is a rather silly exercise to try and apply the 'rules' of one fictional world to a completely different one, like you seem to be doing here.

And if you're not merely debating for the sake of it, and truly think this is something to stand by... good luck. You will need it. 😉

 

[ZehnWaters]

The Valar are the worst kind of good 'cause they aren't even great. I hate people who reek of self righteousness. 'Cause they fight to save lives, but have too much pity and don't get the job done. I mean, they totally could've avoided all this had they just kept him in prisoned or stripped him from power, but no. They are far too nice, mercy has a price. Bro, he revealed that he was already pretty evil, then they let him out! Unlike them, I've got no mercy left to give cuz ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves.

The Valar had no power nor authority with which to strip Morgoth of his power and, as I state earlier, they had no precedent with which to judge him against. How could they know he hadn't repented when he claimed to? We have endless examples of people lying about such things, but not them. When they realized he never would repent, they thrust him out of Arda and he's been kicked out ever since. Of all the things to criticize the Valar for, this isn't one of them.

(Wow, you responded fast) The line between naïveté and hopefulness is almost invisible. So the Valar should've closed their hearts, the world is dark, and ruthlessness is mercy.

Not necessarily. Sometimes (often) it breeds more ruthlessness in return.

What if Bilbo was the one in the wrong? What if he hurt people every time he caved to guilt? What if he was far too kind to foes, but hurtful to others on his side? You've hear about the story of the trojan horse? Does a soldier use a wooden horse to kill sleeping trojans because he is vile? Or does he throw away his remorse and save more lives with guile? If Bilbo had thrown away his remorse, would that have kept foes at bay? If he had become a monster to his foes, and made sure him and his company had got home again, who would care if they were unjust?

You didn't answer the yes-or-no question.

Spare Gollum? That was just Bilbo being soft and lucky. Killing him then wouldn’t have enslaved Bilbo—it would have saved years of chaos, near-deaths, and pointless suffering. Ilúvatar’s “plan” isn’t a get-out-of-responsibility card; destiny doesn’t excuse leaving a ticking time bomb alive. Bilbo’s mercy? Noble, sure—but also stupid.

Prove it. Side-note: the author, himself, disagrees with you.

They also lived consistent with their charge - which was NOT to save M-e from Melkor, Sauron, and evil, but help the peoples of M-e in their battle against it - just as the Valar and maiar needed to help themselves against the wiles of Melkor and Sauron - some succeeding, some failing in so doing.

I'm not sure they were charged with not stopping Melkor since the Children could never defeat him (as they, themselves, stated). Sauron, yes.

This Ent is very thankful it is not up to mere created Valar and Maiar to make final decisiosn and choices on behalf of mankind, but is up to the only ultimate Good - the Creator himself. And this Ent does not fear to show mercy and compassion to all, as the benefit far outweighs the drawbacks, temporary as they are.

I have a feeling he's one of those who thing Jesus was weak and gay and we should retvrn to pagan worship.

There was no "luck" in anything happening in Tolkien's Middle-earth. As Gandalf said to Bilbo at the end of The Hobbit, why should the prophecies be disbelieved or distrusted, just bec:ause Bilbo had a small part in bringing them about? Even Gandalf sensed Gollum 'still had a part to play' in the worlds affairs, well before his (pre-ordained) salvation of the free peoples at Mount Doom.

Remembering this has informed by AU stories, particularly the one about the Ring rolling out to sea.

Methinks it is a rather silly exercise to try and apply the 'rules' of one fictional world to a completely different one, like you seem to be doing here.

An exercise in futility, as I have to remind my friends and family. You can't even apply real-world morality to fictional settings.