The Vanyar: wise or otherwise?

I don't get it......

Q. What did the Vanyar do?

A. Listened to the advice of The Valar.

Was this wise?

Well, considering every leader among The Noldor who left Valinor was dead by the end of the 1st age, with the exception of Galadriel & Maglor (who was a shell of an Elf by then anyway), and the Vanyar still live in bliss, I guess you can say they made the right choice.

The problem wasn't The Vanyar staying in the Blessed Realm, the problem was The Noldor leaving.

We're not trying to figure out if they made the right choice. Even assuming the choice was right, I want to know why they really made that choice. Was it out of real wisdom and knowledge, or something else.

Perhaps they are just too different and holy for the likes of me to understand.

I tend to say they should have went after their friends. There were even mariages between the two people, so close kinships!

I don't think they were afraid of harm coming to them in Middle-earth, but I think they may have trusted the Valar too much.

Anything to add?

It looks like I didn't have much to add in the first place. Whoops. This looked like it was a pretty fun little discussion. oh well. Let me see here. Why do you keep bringing up the friendship thing? I don't remember such a huge deal being made out of it in anything that I have read. Sure, the two races as wholes living in Valinor might call each other casual friends. They had no reason not to. But then, I see nothing that suggests the titanic affront that you seem so offended by. Maybe I missed some passage? I don't know. Anyways, to other things. Yes, they were very different from us. If my friendship with the crazy Noldor types was so great, I would have been swayed by Feanor and gone with them. If it was more of a ---> "Hm? Noldor types? Yeah, they're cool, I guess. Why do you ask? They're hanging out with Aule and Orome, getting some pointers or something. I'm busy right now with an ecstatic dance made to honor the great Spirit Of Sock Puppet (Manwe). Please excuse me." type of relationship, I would think that they would have been praising Manwe, hear about the decision of many Noldor, hear about their Doom, feel a bit of sympathy, then continue praising, blissfully confident that everything will be alright. It always has been, hasn't it? Ah, Valinor is so nice! Has it gotten a bit dimmer around here? oh well. We can still brainlessly worship! Ick, I say!

Manwe has direct access to both Eru and Mandos, and thus his knowledge of things and of the future is greatly enhanced. He is sort of a Master Initiator, and his direct disciples are the Vanyar. Why wouldn't they listen to him? They surely saw the madness in Feanor, and that his pride is a ticket to doom. And in the end, any dead (good) noldor would return to Valinor, so the departure was not a definivite thing. Perhaps the Vanyar were already - literally - sharing Manwe's vision of the things to come..

The Vanyar are favourite elves of Manwë and Varda. We know a lot about Manwë and the most important is: he never stop thinking about Arda. He send the Istari to Middle earth to help the People who live there. At last he attacked Melkor in Beleriand. I think 'his' elves are like him. But there is something else: it is said that Ingwë never turned back to the Middle earth...

The vanyar were content, they loved the valar and the Noldor, but if your at the trees weeping and boom " Hi I'm from the noldi, listen the whole eldamar thing, I'ts not working out. We are going to pop over to ME to wage a fruitless war to get some jewls, wanna come? No? Okay the fell free to come over any time." You decide to stay as feanor is already mad(you think) and by the time you change your mind they've gone and slaughtered there other "freinds".Now if thats not motivation to stay away then what is?

I agree with Nom, the Vanyar should have gone and helped the Noldor, after all, they had very good relationships with each other. Rather than going to help their friends, they stay in the safety of Valinor. Who cares if Manwe forewarned them not to go, they let their own kinsmen fight and die valiantly, while they just twiddled them thumbs. They showed cowardice in not helping the Noldor, even if Manwe told them not to. And even if they didn't go to join the Noldor and aid them, they should have had a good reason to do so.
-Ingolmo

Part of the issue here is how underdeveloped the Vanyar are as literary characters. When all is said and done, what are the Vanyar, really?


I suggest that they have willingly given their independence entirely to the Valar. In essence, they willingly chose to become exclusively Manwe's acolytes. Once their role as those closest to the Valar is established. their decisions become extensions of the will of Manwe.

Personly, i have changed my mind as yaygollum has made me relise that the noldor went to war for revenge for there dead king.
so if all that you have loved is in dark, why not try to fight back instead of letting the higher ups do it?
But maybe look at what the telri said, they though that the valar would save them so the did nothing.



298,299,300. Threehundred posts in three months.

This response is based on my initial thoughts. I haven't gone through all of the responses so I apologize if I'm repeating anything.

I have some questions and observations about the original question Nom posed.

1. Is it really correct that the Noldor left Valinor because they "wanted the stars"? My impression is there was the immediate catalyst of wanting to recapture the Silmarils and then there were underlying agendas of wanting lands to rule on their own. One could consider the Vanyar's choice of remaining in Valinor a case of "cooler heads prevailing" that saved them from a lot of grief compared to following some hot-head (Feanor) to pursue a war they had no hope of winning.

2. Did the Vanyar really know the status of the Noldor? I thought there was no flow of news from Middle-earth to the Vanyar. Manwe, Mandos and Ulmo knew what was going on but I thought they kept it to themselves. I would like to think that if the Vanyar knew what was going on, especially after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, they would have at least asked the Valar to go help. At least come to Middle-earth to offer the remaining Noldor passage to Valinor.

Given the above, I don't know if one could consider the Vanyar's absence from Middle-earth until the War of Wrath a "failure". Also, they were obeying the wishes of the Valar, their Gods. I think they were smart to remain in Valinor.

There are some other points that come to mind but this is enough to start.

I never thought about this question that much until reading this thread. I think the Vanyar were just as wise from the beginning until they did go and help the Noldor. Here's my reasoning. I know this is a little bit of a different context as Iluvatar was talking to Morgoth about evil, but I think the quote below makes sense in this situation too:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

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I got the above quote, which is from the Silmarillion, from here. Basically it's saying, no matter what Melkor/Morgoth tries to do, it will only increase the glory of Iluvatar. So why didn't the Vanyar come and help the Noldor sooner? After living in Aman for thousands of years, the Vanyar know to trust the Valar and their decisions, they know that the Valar have Middle Earth's best intentions in mind. The Valar would know when the time was right because they trust in Iluvatar. What Iluvatar was saying to Morgoth is true for everyone else too. Everything that happens is part of the plan and is necessary in the thought of Eru. From the busting of the lamps to Gollum not being killed by Bilbo or anyone else, it all worked out in the end exactly how it was supposed to. The same goes for the Vanyar waiting for the right time to aid the Noldor.

So to sum it up, I think the Vanyar were wise, they trusted the Valar and their decisions. They were at peace in Aman and had full faith in the Valar that when the time to do something was right, they would do it. And the primary point though, it was all part of

Sorry for reviving a dead thread but...my 2 cents:

Valar don't strike me as particularly wise. Actually, they kinda suck at their job.
a) They left the work half-done. When Melkor kept giving them trouble, they moved to Aman and stayed there - pretty much leaving the whole damn Middle-earth as a playground for Melkor. Yep, it did occur to them that maybe they should be out there doing their job but hey, it all amounted to pretty half-assed efforts. Given how fast Melkor was dealt with later, they could have probably spared everyone a lot of trouble by acting sooner.
b) When the Firstborn entered the picture, the little problem with Melkor having his fun in Outer Realms became a tad more acute, so they *finally* moved their asses and did something about it. And then, instead of helping the Eldar to settle the Middle-earth and make it flourish (it would have been kind of preferble especially with regards to the Aftercomers), they invited them over to Valinor, basically as pets.
c) When Melkor was again running rampant and having fun, they did very little to stop him, while the Noldor were trying to do their job. When the mortals East of Beleriand who were not lucky enough to run into one of the Eldar suffered under Melkor's heel, the Valar sat in Aman. Well, except for Ulmo who - for a long time - was apparently the only one to actually did try to do *something*.

I suppose Valar meant well and all that and it might have been part of Eru's plan but that doesn't make many of the decisions made by Valar any less erroneous just as it doesn't make Melkor any less evil; when Fëanor gave them the middle finger, he was bloody right, even if his motives were questionable.

Obeying that kind of authority so unconditionally does not make Vanyar wise. It makes them a bunch of musically gifted golden retrievers. :-}

Obeying that kind of authority so unconditionally does not make Vanyar wise. It makes them a bunch of musically gifted golden retrievers. :-}

I love this line, Meisiluosi.

taking into account tolkien's fervent Christian background, I think the most accurate way to approach the behaviour of the Vanyar towards their conterparts in Middle-Earth is to consider the biblic idea of Sin. From the awakening in Cuiviénen the vanyar were the only group of elves that held on to the "word" of the valar straightforwardly, their hearts were the purest in arda, and the eagerness to question the authority of Eru and the Vanlar never arose in them. Men and Elves had the option of chasing whichever path they desired, however, it was made clear by the valar that it was their whish that the eldar should remain in the undaying lands after the malignity of Melkor tranformed Middle-Earth into a corrupt place. In the trade-off between freedom of rulling themselves in an unperfect land and being vassals of the Valar in a peceful place the Vanyar chose the promise of the valar, whereas the Noldor chose to be their own masters in Middle-Earth amidst the many difficulties they were about to find there. I suppose that what drove the Vanyar from not helping the Noldor was that they knew it was Noldor's own bussiness to go to Middle-Earth and suffer there, after all the Noldor knew they were going to find only sorrow there, it was no secret even before the curse of Mandos. The noldor only wanted a bite of the apple, Melkor attracted them there when he stole the Silmarils, and so they went, corrupted by the desire for possession and by picking up Melkors bait. I think that the cunningness of Melkor entered the heart of the noldor. The vanyar were those in which doubt did not appear, so the could decide more cautiously on their future. It seems to me that wisdom is not quite the word here, all the 3 groups were wise and foolish to some degree. It is quite clear then that the vanyar did not intervene because it would diverge from their nature, they just couldnt go against the decision they made when orome summoned them. It is what makes them Vanyar, the ones that would never look behind.

The Vanyar are like God's angels in Heaven.

The 3rd of the angels that left, denying the Word of God and his rule, made an extreme choice of will. They are now *fixed* into their choice. So too, are God's faithful angels, they chose to stay with God and are now willingly but consciously fixed into their position, but perhaps fixed isn't the right word for the faithful. They just know the wisest option is to stay with the Source of Wisdom.

Although the Noldor aren't evil, like the fallen angels, they did make an extreme choice of will to leave. The Vanyar I find interesting because they are so much like God's faithful angels who stayed.

Sorry to get overtly religious here, but Marco did point out that Tolkien is a devout Christian, so I'm thinking my analogy here is perhaps what he got inspiration from.

To summarize, the Noldor screwed themselves over with their choice. I don't blame them, but they let "sin" take them way too far and way over the line. Anger does that.

The Vanyar knew from their position to their Gods and their wisdom that staying is the absolute wisest option. They avoided a colossal amount of sorrow pain and death that the Noldor could've avoided if they just stayed.

The Noldor bit from that apple, so they suffered...
The Vanyar left the apple untouched, so they did not suffer.

^Sin in a nutshell.

Again, sorry to get overtly religious, this conversation got me going.

The Vanyar were just like the Teleri when they did not follow the Noldor to Middle Earth. Valar were not fools, they knew that their time had not yet come to take revenge upon Melkor. The Valar and and elves living in the Blessed Realm were aware of the events that were happening in Middle Earth wholly. It would have come to them through the eagles and Ulmo etc.The other elves could not help the Noldor as they were not permitted to stop the Noldor from going to Middle Earth from force. They were not cowards but yet they feared the wrath of the Valar. Those who were living in Valinor since the First Age were forbidden by the Ainur to go from there till the War of Wrath. So they had no choice other than witnessing the unfolding of events in Middle Earth. Also, the elves of the Blessed Realm were highly learned and this knowledge was not a waste as a large population of Elves(Teleri, Vanyar etc) still dwelt there.

Confusticated said:

We know the Vanyar were friends of the Noldor in Valinor, and would have dwelt together if not for the Vanyar wishing to live in the light of the trees whereas the Noldor wanted the stars. Now the Vanyar sat in Valinor for hundreds of years knowing that their friends, the Noldor, were in Middle-earth fighting a losing battle, yet they did not go to aid them until Earendil showed up and the Valar decided it was time.

Was this failure for so many years to leave Aman and join the Noldor in Middle-earth done out of wisdom or out of selfishness, cowardice, foolishness or any other bad reasons?

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I think one could argue it was selfishness.

Confusticated said:

We know the Vanyar were friends of the Noldor in Valinor, and would have dwelt together if not for the Vanyar wishing to live in the light of the trees whereas the Noldor wanted the stars. Now the Vanyar sat in Valinor for hundreds of years knowing that their friends, the Noldor, were in Middle-earth fighting a losing battle, yet they did not go to aid them until Earendil showed up and the Valar decided it was time.

Was this failure for so many years to leave Aman and join the Noldor in Middle-earth done out of wisdom or out of selfishness, cowardice, foolishness or any other bad reasons?

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The Vanyar are the most devoted of all the children of Aman. There place was always at the Valars side and it was there bidding that the Vanyar followed. It's evident in the fact that they helped in middle-earth only when the Valar did. The Noldor defied the gods and the Vanyar would have seen this as an insult. They would never have come to the Noldors aid if the Valar had not decided to.

We know very little about Vanyar. You can call them cowards or wise. We really don't know because the story is not about them. They are only there to enrich the lore. Ultimately the story are about the legendary Noldors and the plight against ultimate evil...