The White Council, doomed to fail?

[Arvedui]

Galadriel first summoned the White Council, and her original plan was for Gandalf the Grey to be the leader. And she think that things might have been otherwise if so had been. But were there really any chance for the Council to succeed?
The dominion of Men was drawing near, but still there were no Men on the Council was there? There were only Elves and Maiar as far as I know, and none of them had really any bonds to Middle-earth any longer. Their home was to be in Valinor or Tol Eressëa.
I think that Galadriel's attempt was doomed to fail from the beginning.

 

[Eriol]

I don't think it failed . It was quite important in the elimination of Smaug (Gandalf only had the map of the secret entrance of the Mountain because he was in a Council mission), and in containing the menace of Dol Guldur (which allowed a strong Lórien in 3019, a fundamental feature of the success of the Quest of the Ring).

It seems a case of half-full vs. half-empty. I don't know the "charter" of the White Council; I don't know whether its members would consider its role a failure, all things considered. They were not perfect, but what is?

 

[Gothmog]

Well in answer to the title of the thread, yes the council was doomed to fail and all in there knew it. They were only fighting the long defeat.

However, in knowing this they did not even hope for victory but in defeating Sauron and doing so with the least risk to the rest of the peoples of Middle-earth.

This hope may have been better served if Gandalf had been the head of the council, but even so, it is more likely that it would still have been Saruman who would have been studying the lore of the rings and therefore would have been doing much the same anyway. That is he would have been hiding most of what he had learned from the counil for his own purposes.

The only part that may have gone differently is the attack on Dol-guldur would have taken place sooner and may not have been foreseen so clearly by Sauron. This might have discomforted Sauron to the assistance of the council but I doubt that the difference would have very great.

 

[Ingwë]

If Galadriel thought that the White Council is doomed to fail she wouldn't summon it
Galadriel summoned the Council to help the free peoples of the Middle earth. I suppose the she knew that is not easy but the tried to help. The members of the Council knew much more things about SAuron, the Ring, Middle-earth, etc. than the othe living creatures. The men easy fall under the Shadow of the Dark lord. Even Saruman couldn't endure the power of the Ring - he wanted it for himself (the Ring = Sauron ). What can a man do against Sauron. I think that it is not good idea to ask a man to join the council.

I think that Gandalf would be better leader than Saruman the White (or Saruman of Many colors ) but I also think that he wasn't ready for than when the council was summoned. Gandalf the White would be better leader than both Gandalf the Grey and Saruman the White.

I agree that it didn't failed. Finally Sauron was overthrown for ever.

Eriol, are you coming (back )

 

[Gothmog]

Ah, but from the point of view of the Elves, all attempts to battle Sauron were doomed to fail as whatever happened the Elves would lose Middle-earth. However, the most good could be achieved by the actions of the White Council and therefore Galadriel called it together knowing that their failer would still be of help to the rest of the peoples of Middle-earth. After all, they could have simply gone to the havens and left on the Gray Ships.

And whild Gandalf would have no doubt been the better leader, could he have prevented Saruman doing much as he did do anyway?

 

[Ingwë]

After all, they could have simply gone to the havens and left on the Gray Ships.

As far as I remember the elvesz love the Middle earth. They didn't want to leave it, but they have no other choice.
Yes, the Elves knew what will happen but they helped the other peoples , probably because they love M-e.

 

[Alcuin]

I am uncertain that Galadriel knew she could return to The West. Depending upon which version of her story you like, as a leader of the rebellious Noldor during their departure from Valinor she was under an especial ban; in that telling of the story, it was her particular courage and selflessness resisting Sauron during the Third Age that enabled her return. (Late in life, Tolkien changed the story of Galadriel and Celeborn: there are 43 pages on this in the hardback copy of Unfinished Tales.)

In any event, the leaders of the Eldar would have resisted whether they could leave or not: Middle-earth was Elrond’s only home, and Círdan’s, too: leaving Middle-earth, they went into a kind of exile. And perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that the Elves, like the Dúnedain, fought Sauron because it was “the right thing to do”: it was their fate to fight Sauron regardless of the outcome.

Tolkien’s stories often reveal a moral imperative in the protagonists to fight evil whether they have any hope of winning or not.

 

[Gothmog]

In any event, the leaders of the Eldar would have resisted whether they could leave or not: Middle-earth was Elrond’s only home, and Círdan’s, too: leaving Middle-earth, they went into a kind of exile. And perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that the Elves, like the Dúnedain, fought Sauron because it was “the right thing to do”: it was their fate to fight Sauron regardless of the outcome.

Tolkien’s stories often reveal a moral imperative in the protagonists to fight evil whether they have any hope of winning or not.

Yes, this is the very point of my posts. The Elves, knowing that whatever happened they would lose, still did all they could to battle the evil of Sauron because it was indeed "The right thing to do".

Tolkien does not seem to see Hope of Victory as the most powerful reason to fight. It is the 'doing the right thing' regardless of cost that is important. Victory can then come by battle or by means unforseen.

 

[Arvedui]

Ingwë,
I am not stating that Galadriel knew that the Council was doomed to fail. I am inquiring (sp?) if there is a connection between the fact that Men were lacking from the Council, and the fact that the Council itself failed.

Please note the difference between the Council as one body, and the acts of singular members of that Council afterwards.

Ultimately, the reason for the Council failing was because of Saruman, of course.

 

[Alcuin]

The members of the Third Age White Council are enumerated to a degree in The Silmarillion, “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,” (pg. 360 in the 1999 DelRay edition):

…the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír.

This White Council was formed in 2463 to coordinate resistance to Sauron following the end of the Watchful Peace. The name of this Council echoes an earlier Council established by Gil-galad following the War of the Elves and Sauron in the middle of the Second Age, where
(Unfinished Tales, “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn,” “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn,” p. 239)

…it was there determined that an Elvish stronghold in the east of Eriador should be maintained at Imladris rather than in Eregion. At that time also Gil-galad gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and appointed him to be his vice-regent in Eriador; but the Red Ring he kept, until he gave it to Círdan when he set out from Lindon in the days of the Last Alliance.

Gil-galad was assisted by the fact that the Númenóreans began to keep permanent fortresses in Middle-earth, creating increasingly armed buffer regions between Lindon and Mordor.

The White Council established by Galadriel in the Third Age did indeed fail in the sense that it fell apart on the treachery of Saruman, and in the end it was not only ineffective in preventing his nefarious plans from developing to action, but its leader, Saruman worked against its primary purposes in order to seize power in Middle-earth for himself.

But in a broader sense, the White Council did not fail. Its members – Imladris, Lindon, and the Dúnedain of Arnor were represented at the Council of Elrond, with other allies brought, as it were, “by chance” to the Council. That Council did indeed dispose of the matter of the Ring, and Lórien, the member missing at Elrond’s Council, was instrumental in the completion of the task set forth in Imladris.

Ultimately, the Council frustrated Sauron’s plans; Saruman even in his deepest treachery frustrated and delayed Sauron. And its constituent members were in the end able to set into motion the events that brought about the Downfall of the Lord of the Rings.

 

[Ingwë]

I am inquiring (sp?) if there is a connection between the fact that Men were lacking from the Council, and the fact that the Council itself failed.

I don't think that asking men to join the Council is good idea. I think that if the there were men in the Council it would fall sooner. I mentioned what happen the Ringwraiths

Please note the difference between the Council as one body, and the acts of singular members of that Council afterwards.

The Council as a whole was created to help the free peoples of the Middle earth against Sauron. It was created when a Shadow fall on Dol Guldur. Its members really wanted to help at the beginning but later Saruman decided to try to find the Ring for himself. I think that it's role decreased when Saruman sarted creating army for his own at Isengard.
Remember the Council of Elrond. I think that if the White Council worked at that time it should be summoned, not other Council. It would be normal.

Ultimately, the reason for the Council failing was because of Saruman, of course.

Ahen, the reason for the Council's problems... As I mentioned, I don't think it failed. Remember what did it do before the War of the Ring.