Discussion The Works of Curufinwë (discussion)

[Server Room Gremlin]

(Reading on the plane, woohoo! One of the only places where I can focus easily on reading.)

Perhaps because there are few other distractions in such a small space, and the ambient sound of an aircraft is very similar to brown noise. :>

This is a slightly different version of the Oath of Fëanor than I remember it. Where did you get it from?

I followed the text of the Silmarillion exactly as I was writing. So I used all dialogue present in the text, and constructed some myself where there's only a description of what is said, or where I need it for my own narrative.

What Celegorm said here is exactly what was written at this point in the book.

Is Curufin disagreeing with Celegorm here, or just debating it in his mind?

As you discovered later on, these single lines of italicised text are the murmurings of the people in the hall. I didn't put them in quotes, as they're not dialogue distinctly spoken by any one person in particular.

Finrod’s solemn expression is unchanging, though there is something stricken and pained in his eyes. The murmurs of the people have an increasingly uncertain sound to them. With perhaps some anger. Some agreement.

Why should we follow?

Is he not our king? We are honour-bound to aid him.

^ I noted that these were the murmurs of the people before the words were spoken, rather than after them.
But straight after that, we do return to Curufin's inner thoughts, so I can see where the confusion arises.

Curufin stares blankly up at his cousin. Perhaps there is a way to regain our strength. But it must be done—it must be done now. I must tip the scales in our favour. We need this kingdom, and these people, and turning them against their king is the only way to do so. When will there be another opportune time? I cannot wait for a future period of war or instability. If Morgoth continues his assaults upon our lands, the people may be too diminished by then to be much use to us. My brother and I may well be slain before then. And Felagund could easily outlast us, for his people will do their utmost to protect their beloved king. Has that not already happened? And those Men were not even under his direct command.

🎵Sneaky Scheming Curufin!🎵 I do genuinely love when we get to see his ruthless, scheming political side. Obviously I love our Soft Curvo and his depth of feeling, but at the end of the day he is Curufin the Crafty, and I just really enjoy when he's plotting some morally questionable political scheme! Plotting to get your cousin's people to turn against him is pretty dark!

Yes, in this story you can get a view of the whole Curvo! It's a little hard to show this side of him when most of our discussions and casual RPs involve Curufin interacting with his brothers and close family.

But then also, him contemplating his and Celegorm's death as though he knows it's inevitable hit me right in the heart. 🥺

Curufin, Celegorm and Celebrimbor have not long ago narrowly escaped death when their lands were overrun during the Dagor Bragollach.
And unlike with Finrod's narrow escape from death (saved by Barahir), no-one came to their rescue, and they had to find their way to Nargothrond on their own strength.

So it's not even Curufin having a skewed view of things because he's depressed, it's also just reality to him, based on his recent experience. 🥺

Really interesting to see Curufin's internal struggle over this. And it's understandable; it doesn't seem like there really is a right answer to this dilemma. Betray your cousin, or go with him on a suicide mission? Especially with the complications of the Fëanorians' Oath.

Moral of the story: Don't. Swear. Oaths!!

💯
Elrond in LOTR definitely was thinking about all this when he advised the Fellowship against swearing oaths. 🙂

And it is indeed interesting.

People who view Celegorm and Curufin as being 100% driven by hunger for power in this story are only viewing it superficially, imo. They're looking at the text from the outside, rather than from the inside, considering the experiences these characters have had, and what the situation must look like to them.

Not long before this, Celegorm and Curufin have gone through a traumatic experience where the works of their hands have been brought to nothing, in what was essentially mere moments. They are going to be desperate, especially with the pressure to fulfil the Oath in this weakened state of theirs.

I also thought that Curufin's buried unresolved grievance about the kingship passing to Fingolfin would come back to bite him and everyone else. Volatile situations like this can bring up all sorts of other hurts and ugly feelings. Therefore this is what 'crushes' the last of Curufin's own hesitancy or guilt about doing this to Finrod.

The pair of them desire power, of course, but given the situation, I think this would be driven by a perceived need for it, and not arrogance and entitlement alone.

I do feel bad for him here, though. 🥺 He doesn't have much of a choice, just as the Fëanorians don't, and now he's essentially alone in this doomed quest.

Indeed, poor Findo. 🥺
Literally right before this in the Silm, he's listening to Beren, and says 'Yet my own oath holds; and thus we are all ensnared'.

Thingol and his incredibly stupid demands... >:I

Not quite what? Also, I was amused to see Celegorm's sudden mood change!

Curufin notes Orodreth's slight change of expression when he looks towards him: Orodreth is not quite as proud and unconcerned as he seems.

As Finrod departs, Orodreth remains standing before them, crown in his hands, face proud and unconcerned.
His gaze flickers briefly as he glances at Curufin and Celegorm.
Not quite. Curufin smiles at him.

And Celegorm remains cheeky Tyelko even in this dire situation. 😂

Is this the infamous moment where they smiled and backed out of the halls, or am I thinking of something else?

Yesss, this is that moment! 🤭 "Celegorm and Curufin said nothing, but they smiled and went from the halls."
I had Curufin's smile as subtle and knowing, perhaps a bit mocking, and Celegorm's as friendly/cheery (which is meant in an intimidating manner, since both he and Orodreth know that Orodreth is totally powerless here).

Overall, this chapter presents so many things to think about. Reading your writing tends to require a bit of extra processing effort from my brain, but it's always worth it. There's so many different types of pressure that Curufin is facing, as you said before, and I think as an INFJ I enjoy contemplating these impossible moral dilemmas!

I am glad you enjoyed it. 🤗

You can imagine how much processing power my brain was using up throughout the writing process! What with all the layered story threads, and character arcs, and themes, and scenes which are mirrored or echoed later on with a different situation or different characters.

It was a huge weight off my mind once I finished this story, because all of this was running or idling in the back of my mind when I wasn't actively writing too.
It's why I don't like having too many projects started at once, as they all take up space in my brain until I'm done with them.

Writing a story in prose form seems to pull from many different areas of my brain at once, which is why I find it taxing and I'm relatively slow at it, even though the end result is very satisfying.


When I write creatively, I'm essentially painting a picture with my words, and writing a poem at the same time.
My word choices are primarily informed by the image I'm trying to convey: so that the reader can see what I'm seeing, as close as possible.

But when I put the words together into a sentence, and the sentences together into a train of thought or narrative narration, they also have to follow a particular poetic rhythm that appears in my head, which changes according to what I think sounds fitting for that sentence.
So I might choose a different word if the syllable count will throw off the rhythm, or I might repeatedly rearrange the order of words until it sounds right.

I don't do the above for everything I write, it depends on what I feel is fitting for that particular project. TWC was a story where I did this the whole time. But I'm much less strict about the efficiency and poetry when writing an RP post, for example.

My descriptions also need to fit the pace of the action: short and brief when things are happening quickly, and longer and more descriptive when I want the reader to take more time pondering this moment.

And of course I love to include wordplay, and choose the word most fitting for what I'm trying to describe, considering all its possible meanings and definitions, and what connotations it has.

The chapter presents many things to think about because I was thinking about many many (many!) things while writing, I guess! 😁

 

[WatcherWraith]

Ghank you for sharing your writing process with us in so much detail, Curvo! 🥰😍 It's a pleasure to get to know how your mind works, and it adds so much to our experience of reading your story.

 

[Maedhros_Nelyafinwë]

Being at a cafe to use the wifi while my power is out at home, I return to this story!

“Of course.” He turns to Curufin, placing a hand on his shoulder. “Yet let me tell you something myself, brother.” He leans down to whisper in Curufin’s ear, smiling broadly. “You worry too much.”
Curufin is jolted by the rush of air from the over-loud whisper. A hand over his ear, he frowns at his brother.

Lol! 😂 That's our Tyelko the Troll!

As they draw near to Doriath’s eaves, Curufin slows his horse. Noticing this, Celegorm does the same. “Do you tire already, Curufin? My, you have grown soft in your advanced years.”
Curufin snorts. “So sayeth my elder.”

😂 And the roasting continues. I'm so glad there's some humor to break up these heavy moments!

Curufin raises his head. His brother has leaped to his feet and is staring at Huan, who appears to be accompanied by a long, shimmering shadow. Curufin blinks. It is not moving, and yet it somehow escapes his direct gaze every time he tries to examine it. He looks back at Celegorm, and through his peripheral vision, he notices the shadow is elf-sized, slim and tall.

I thought the way you described Luthien's disguise was really interesting.

“I shall not fail to aid you, daughter of the Queen.” Celegorm’s voice interrupts his thoughts. His tone is changed, and Curufin glances at him. The hungry hunting light is back in Celegorm’s eyes, though his expression remains soft and serious. Curufin suppresses a smirk. That is the last thing on his mind.

Uh oh. Don't even think about it, bro!!!

Curufin makes no move, simply observing the exchange, his keen mind probing the new opportunity. So, she is acting alone. ...A stroke of fortune, indeed. Thingol’s daughter is at our mercy. What could we force the king to do, now that she is in our hands? He has shunned us before, but he cannot turn a blind eye to us now.

And don't YOU even think about it either.

If Maitimo were there and he knew what these two were thinking, he'd bonk them both on the head with a wrapping paper roll!

Celegorm mounts his horse and holds out his hand towards Lúthien. “Here, my lady. You may ride with me.”

Of course he offers that. 🙄

I also liked how the reasons for Celegorm wanting to marry Luthien were clearly laid out here. The political reasons for it have always confused me a bit, but then again, it's been forever since I read anything related to Beren & Luthien.

“As for the security of our rule, it seems the lady has no knowledge of Felagund’s fate. Yet if the Man is in mortal danger, as she says, I do not doubt Felagund would have fought in his defence. So then...” Curufin shrugs, flicking his gaze back to Celegorm as the darkness of the room seems to encroach upon him. “He is dead. Or a prisoner himself.”
Curufin falls silent, keeping his eyes on his lamp-lit brother. This wretched darkness.
With a slight look of consternation, Celegorm reaches out to lightly touch Curufin’s hand, which rests upon the table. “...I will do as you think best, little one. How are we to proceed?”
Curufin blinks. Little one...? What do you perceive in my face that you think needs comforting?

Very interesting reaction here to an initial thought of Finrod's fate! I can't say I'm surprised, given how Curufin coldly regarded Finrod as a pawn in his schemes. But I can feel how the family connection is still there, and Curufin doesn't seem to want to admit that he cares at all.

I'm going to leave off here and finish the chapter another time. My brain feels overheated from a long week at work, and my stamina for reading is very small these days. But, as usual, you pose lots of interesting concepts to think about, and I think you're doing a great job highlighting the morally objectionable nature of what the 2C's are doing, while also looking at it from their point of view at the same time.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

If Maitimo were there and he knew what these two were thinking, he'd bonk them both on the head with a wrapping paper roll!

Hmm... Curufin will have... some thoughts about Maitimo 'not being there'. Much later on. 😐
Head bonks most deserved! Although the situation may seem desperate and neither of them are in the best frame of mind, deceiving someone and holding them against their will is really a nasty thing to jump to doing, even though they did not intend to cause Lúthien further harm at this stage.

Of course he offers that. 🙄

Here I'm going to point out something which is buried rather deeply in the text (and in Curufin's feelings):

Celegorm mounts his horse and holds out his hand towards Lúthien. “Here, my lady. You may ride with me.”
Lúthien looks uncertain, her gaze flicking between Celegorm’s face and the horse’s back. Curufin comes beside her and with a gentle hand helps lift her up to sit behind his brother. Lúthien hesitantly places her arms around Celegorm’s middle. For a moment, the light of the sun dims before Curufin’s eyes. He turns away abruptly and mounts his own horse, setting off at once. The soft thudding of hoofbeats and the rustling of hounds running through the grass follow behind him.
Curufin finds himself numbly gripping the saddle-bow with a hand. He gives a blank look to his palm. It was enough to leave deep marks on his fingers, and yet the pain is absent. Or runs too deep to be felt.
A long-buried memory of hunting in a different time and place, no doubt. He shakes his head and his lips quirk up in a silent laugh. As if it matters now.

Lúthien is hesitating here, as I imagine she may never have ridden a horse before. Doriath is a forest kingdom, and it is rare for the inhabitants to venture outside its borders. I don't think horse riding would be much of a regular activity, if the trees and bushes grow so close together that riding would be barely faster than just walking.

Curufin lifts her to sit behind Celegorm... and well, it reminds him of a certain other someone who is tall with dark hair, and had no experience with riding horses before she joined him and Celegorm on a hunt.

Tancaquárë sighs, not looking up from her work. "I can't ride... horses." She gestures vaguely with her nail hammer. "Never tried."
Curufinwë masks his surprise. His expression serious, he crouches down all the way, gazing upwards into her face. "That's no matter, Anca. You can sit behind me. And we will not be riding fast in the woodlands, anyway."
There is another brief silence as they look at each other. Then Tancaquárë nods. And Curufinwë grins.

***​

Tancaquárë, her arms wrapped around Curufinwë's middle, leans against him as they ride back towards the stables, tired out after the day's ride. Tyelkormo had taken it upon himself to bring their game to the kitchens.

(from the first chapter of I Will Hold Your Hand Again)

I didn't expect anyone to pick up on this, really, as I didn't mention that Curufin was remembering his wife in particular. Simply because Curufin himself has been shoving down those memories so hard for so long that he's not going to dwell on her in any sort of detail, let alone refer to her by name.
To my astonishment, the ever observant @WatcherWraith actually did pick up what was behind Curufin's unusual reaction to helping Lúthien onto the horse: the deeply buried grief of losing Tancaquárë.
Just another thing to add to the pile of the horrible pressure cooker that is Nargothrond at this point in the narrative... 😕


There's also this, as Curufin sees Lúthien for the first time:

The shadow flutters, parts in the middle and is thrown aside, flowing away behind a tall elf-maiden, with skin fair as flowers beneath the sun and short hair black and glimmering as a star-filled night. Her clear grey eyes are filled with sorrow, yet a spark of determination lights them from within.
Curufin is amazed, for he has not seen such beauty since his departure from Valinor. Who...?

Is he thinking about the beauty of things in Valinor in a generic sense?
Or is he thinking about a certain someone, whom he has not seen since he left?

I also liked how the reasons for Celegorm wanting to marry Luthien were clearly laid out here. The political reasons for it have always confused me a bit, but then again, it's been forever since I read anything related to Beren & Luthien.

The narrative in the book is really zoomed out, which makes the character motivations sometimes feel vague and confusing. And yet at the same time, the Beren & Lúthien story is where we get much more of the thoughts, words and motivations of Celegorm and Curufin than anywhere else in the book. So I had less freedom when it comes to interpretation.

So I definitely had my work cut out for me, getting a reasonably consistent train of thought and character arc for Curufin in here, and trying to do justice to all the characters, figuring out what makes each of their actions understandable even if still distasteful.

In the book, it says this about the motivation they have to keep and marry Lúthien:

For now, believing that Beren and Felagund were prisoners beyond hope of aid, they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien, and force Thingol to give her hand to Celegorm. Thus they would advance their power, and become the mightiest of the princes of the Noldor. And they did not purpose to seek the Silmarils by craft or war, or to suffer any others to do so, until they had all the might of the Elf-kingdoms under their hands.

It doesn't say anything about why they think that way, however, so it was up to me to figure it out. My thoughts were:

Despair and the urgency of the Oath:
Their oath demands they regain the Silmarils. However, they are nowhere near strong enough to challenge Morgoth: their grievous losses in the Dagor Bragollach, which forced them to flee from their ruined lands, has proved this in their minds. They would need the might of all the Elf-kingdoms together, at the very least. But the only way they think they can obtain this is by force and fear. They doubt anyone else will want to help them of their own accord.

Trauma:
What they have suffered means neither of them are thinking straight or being 100% logical. Even Curufin, the schemer, is acting with tunnel vision based on wounded feelings and despair.

Grudge against Thingol:
When fleeing their ruined lands, they had to journey a long way, around the edge of Doriath, as Thingol would not let them pass through or give them aid (because kinslayers). This also contributes to the 'no-one will actually want to help us' mindset. And now that they have Lúthien, Thingol can't turn a blind eye to them anymore.

Birthright:
This is more Curufin's motivation than Celegorm's. Curufin still hasn't gotten over the sting of losing the kingship of the Noldor, something which was very important to Fëanor (and thus it's tied to his love for his father and his inward devastation over his loss). Curufin tried to suppress those feelings out of pragmatism back when Maedhros gave the crown to Fingolfin. But they have returned to rear their ugly head in the current volatile situation, combined with a sense of entitlement, and some measure of hunger for power and control. Curufin also tries to frame it as 'justice' in his mind.

Celegorm is 'enamoured' of Lúthien, as it says in the book, but this simply means he's the first to propose the idea of political marriage, and it makes it a lot easier for him to desire such a marriage. However, lust is not his main driving motivation. He's an entitled and arrogant prince, but he's not a creep.

Very interesting reaction here to an initial thought of Finrod's fate! I can't say I'm surprised, given how Curufin coldly regarded Finrod as a pawn in his schemes. But I can feel how the family connection is still there, and Curufin doesn't seem to want to admit that he cares at all.

Celegorm and Curufin are not exactly comfortable with what they've done to Finrod. We don't really see Celegorm's thoughts as much, but I think he'd blame Beren more than anything, for coming here and doing that with Finrod's oath. And he'd definitely think there was no other option than to do what they did in this situation. It's also not something he spends time overthinking, as he lives in the moment and takes things as they are.

But Curufin, curiously enough, can't really justify his actions to himself at all, in his heart of hearts. He feels the guilt much more acutely.

Curufin doesn't seem to want to admit that he cares at all.

And you are spot on with that observation. Curufin does not want to admit a lot of things to himself. He is suppressing everything that does not align with what he thinks he 'needs' to do, in order to succeed, in order to regain strength, in order to fulfil the Oath.

Not to mention that Curufin also doesn't really have a way to work through the various distressing and complicated emotions he's experiencing, due to losing the only person he was used to confiding in deeply (Fëanor), long before he was able to reach full emotional maturity.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

I'm going to leave off here and finish the chapter another time. My brain feels overheated from a long week at work, and my stamina for reading is very small these days. But, as usual, you pose lots of interesting concepts to think about, and I think you're doing a great job highlighting the morally objectionable nature of what the 2C's are doing, while also looking at it from their point of view at the same time.

Totally ok bro, I definitely get it! 🥺