Theory on why the Ring has no effect on Bombadil

[Olorgando]

... One way would be to cut to the scenes being narrated; to show what was being described. ...

Never thought of that! Good point, SeS! But my feeling is that it still would have involved in a lot of shooting (and film time), and (I am actually able to occasionally agree with PJ!) that might have meant an amount of flashbacks that could be confusing to all but serious nerds (a rather smallish subset of those who had read the books before the films came out - something like 50 million of the latter at the time of the films' release).

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

It need not be, I feel -- in the hands of a competent director. I've seen it done well in other movies.

With regard to time and expense, think of the Last Alliance battle, mounted so lavishly (unnecessarily so, IMO), and repeated ad nauseum. I can't believe the scenes I'm suggesting were left out due to time or budgetary constraints. I think rather they were more because of the reason I mentioned -- PJ's penchant for anticipating the action, something Tolkien severely criticized about the Zimmerman treatment.

A major element in the story is the air of mystery; a series of mysteries -- or, to be less anachronistic, "riddles" -- that unfold, bit by bit, over time, as Frodo learns more and more about the Ring, and the history of the greater world outside the Shire. Much of this is lost in the films; I had a somewhat sinking feeling when the first film began with the story of the Great Rings,something Frodo hears about thirty pages, and a number of years, into the story. It's my belief that this is down to the screenwriters' distrust of the audience.

 

[Olorgando]

I don’t think I’d blame the scriptwriters (but then for his JRRT “trilogies”, PJ was scriptwriter with others, director and producer – maybe that’s an unhealthy combination!), I’ve read a bit about Douglas Adams and his “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” (first book published in 1979, but the BBC 4 radio series preceded it in 1978), and from that I have the impression that post WW II Hollywood has gotten into a rut (I’m thinking Grand Canyon territory) of pathetically primitive cookie cutters into which they try ruthlessly to squash anything that comes their way. “Distrust of the audience” seems to be a massive understatement. Now I’m guessing a bit wildly at what precise group they are targeting many of their products – occasionally it seems to be three-year-old, though my more usual guess is seriously dysfunctional fourteen-year-olds. Anyway, it really doesn’t seem to matter, as the invariably manage to insult the intelligence of every group they might be targeting. 👿

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I'd comment, but I couldn't put it any better myself!

(I have a story about my first encounter with Hitchhiker, but as it's OT, won't relate it here.)

 

[Miguel]

Tom as a sort of anti-Ungoliant?

The spirit of the English countryside VS a black hole.

 

[Aldarion]

I think Tom is meant to be one of those mysteries out there. There is so much more to Legendarium than Maiar, Valar and the Children of Eru (and dwarves). Remember those unnamed horrors of darkest deeps? Some of whom are older than Sauron? I get a feeling that Tom Bombadil is meant to be one of them.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

There's some discussion of this in the thread I linked on page 1, including relevant quotes from the Letters by Merroe and others.

 

[Olorgando]

I think Tom is meant to be one of those mysteries out there. There is so much more to Legendarium than Maiar, Valar and the Children of Eru (and dwarves). Remember those unnamed horrors of darkest deeps? Some of whom are older than Sauron? I get a feeling that Tom Bombadil is meant to be one of them.

Um, yes, but my feeling is that that's one of JRRT's somewhat careless, almost throwaway lines which felt right to him in writing.
In a strict sense, Sauron, as an Ainu, is older than Arda, never mind anything in it, as Arda was created by Eru in response to the Music of the Ainur.

But as it is with the years of the Two Trees, First Age before the rising of the Moon and the Sun (both in the West the first time!): how long a time was that? (JRRT did some hefty revisions on the matter, all very incomplete.)

Similarly, how much of sun time elapsed between Eru's actual creation of Arda and the first Ainur (to become Valar and Maiar) actually “went down” there? I mean to them, the odd millennium or even million sun years would mean almost nothing. So could creations of theirs from the music have been moving about (it would have been in the dark) before they themselves arrived? Or for that matter (it’s been pointed out, I believe) not all of the Ainur must have taken the form of Valar or Maiar – which would very nicely explain Ungoliant and Tom.

And just a last bit of vexation regarding TB (eldest and fatherless): Celeborn in Chapter VI in Book Six in RoTK, “Many Partings” (echoing “Meetings” in FoTR) addressing Treebeard as “Eldest” … 😁

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Sauron, as an Ainu, is older than Arda,

I always took it to mean Sauron in Middle Earth, rather than the "heavenly" being.

As for Treebeard, perhaps he referring to the list of the "Free Peoples" in the old Ent's song. Tom doesn't appear there either.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I think Tom is meant to be one of those mysteries out there. There is so much more to Legendarium than Maiar, Valar and the Children of Eru (and dwarves). Remember those unnamed horrors of darkest deeps? Some of whom are older than Sauron? I get a feeling that Tom Bombadil is meant to be one of them.

Further discussion on this subject, among related ones, in another earlier thread:

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/ri...sing-about-older-than-orcs-and-goblins.23690/

And may I just add here that I miss Kinofnerdanel? *sniff* 😞

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Further discussion on this subject, among related ones, in another earlier thread:

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/ri...sing-about-older-than-orcs-and-goblins.23690/

And may I just add here that I miss Kinofnerdanel? *sniff* 😞

I reread the entire post of mine just for old time's sake.

Thanks for sharing.






I miss her too.



CL

 

[irg]

This is actually a pretty solid theory. If the Ring is to be used to get someone what they wanted, whether just invisibility like in the cases of Smeagol and Bilbo, to gold (in the case of dwarves), to power and strength (in the case of men and perhaps wizards), then, to somebody who was totally content the way they were and without a care in the world, the Ring would have NO effect whatsoever on them.

Granted, I think the first time Bilbo put the Ring on, he wasn't intending to make himself invisible, so it's not a solid argument that if you don't intend to use the Ring to do something, that it won't still do something to you. However, to be fair, on that one, now that I think of it, Bilbo WAS intending to NOT be found by Gollum, and the Ring obliged. As for Isildur, from what I can tell when he wore the Ring, he was intending NOT to be found by the Orcs (and the Ring obliged for a while, then betrayed him.) Had Bilbo found the Ring and not intended to hide from anyway or be invisible, perhaps it wouldn't have made him invisible.

Of course, on the other hand, I don't think Frodo was intending to be invisible at The Prancing Pony, but perhaps he'd had too much to drink and in his drunken mode, actually DID intend to disappear as a childish prank.


Anyway, as Bombadil doesn't seem too bothered that Sauron is on the loose or that he has evil Hourons on one side of his house and Barrow Wights on the other, I'd say he's totally happy the way he is.

As such, perhaps for that reason, the Ring is useless against him. Ironically, for that reason, it would indeed make him a very poor guardian of it. Either he would get bored of it and toss it away or caring for it enough to destroy it would get him to actually desire something he doesn't have (the destruction of the Ring). Hence, the Ring would try to tempt him to use it to make it easier to get to Mordor so that he could destroy it (which, would, of course, in time, end up backfiring by revealing him to Sauron, which would have been what the Ring really wanted.). Also, for that matter, it's also likely why Galadriel and Glorfindel didn't take the Ring. Even if they had the sense to know that keeping it as a weapon to defeat Sauron, rather than destroying it, was a foolish idea, the Ring could have gotten to them to use their powers to blast through foes in their way to Mordor in their quest to destroy the Ring, which would alert Sauron, who might even end up coming himself to waylay them.

Anyway, because Bombadil doesn't desire anything from the Ring and is content the way he is, the Ring doesn't affect him. As for how he was able to vanish it, I have no idea.


BTW, I think even Gandalf confirms my theory when he says "say not that he has power over the Ring, rather, that the Ring has no power over him."

this is actually an area worth thinking about. While a cogent argument, those who council to simply let "it be" and "not read too much into it" are missing a larger point (possibly, it's impossible of course to know). Tolkien believed in history, not metaphor; so he tells us directly. And even his fantasy/fiction is grown out of the soil of the real earth. We are told at the council of Elrond that basically, the Ring is more powerful than any that oppose it. So an accounting of TB's place in this hierarchy must at least be attempted. If that accounting leaves much to be desired, then it truly does reflect real life. So often we are left with unsatisfactory answers in life, even to really important questions; and decisions must be made on far less than optimum input. Life goes on, paths must be chosen. So it is with TB. It's not that the answer need not be sought; it's that our failure to find that answer, can't stop us from acting. It IS frustrating because if we could figure it out, it might provide the correct path... but we can't..

At times I also thought perhaps the answer was simply that there is Mystery in life; so much that we don't understand, and that Tolkien thought that was part of the beauty of life; that there were things "beyond" and "above" our understanding; things that were beautiful none the less, and that the mere appreciation of that beauty, was all that we could aspire to.

Finally, there are times when an author simply writes himself (or herself) into a corner with a pretty bauble, and just leaves it hoping that a solution will present itself later on. I don't think that's the case here though.

As to the vanishing, I would posit the following theory: First, TB Does desire and use power. He uses the word "master" and "mastery" over all in his domain. That is not the language of one with no desire for (at least some) serious power. Gandalf tells us that he has defined the boundries of that domain, but "domain" it is. So to Tom, taking the ring is a test, as is everyone else. But for him the test is.. is he truly the master of his domain? He takes the ring, knowing what it was, and is, and he pits himself against it.. he puts it on his finger and defies it to vanish him from the world of sight.. it can not... then he does the exact opposite to the ring.. he makes IT vanish from the world of sight.. thus proving to himself that he is in deed, the master.. having passed that test, he is unafraid of any consequences that may come... my theory anyway

 

[Gothmog]

As to the vanishing, I would posit the following theory: First, TB Does desire and use power. He uses the word "master" and "mastery" over all in his domain. That is not the language of one with no desire for (at least some) serious power. Gandalf tells us that he has defined the boundries of that domain, but "domain" it is. So to Tom, taking the ring is a test, as is everyone else. But for him the test is.. is he truly the master of his domain? He takes the ring, knowing what it was, and is, and he pits himself against it.. he puts it on his finger and defies it to vanish him from the world of sight.. it can not... then he does the exact opposite to the ring.. he makes IT vanish from the world of sight.. thus proving to himself that he is in deed, the master.. having passed that test, he is unafraid of any consequences that may come... my theory anyway

Tom does indeed possess and use power within his domain. However, this does not mean that he desires any power that he does not already possess. He has mastery over all in the domain whose boundaries he has set and most importantly full mastery of himself. This puts him in the ideal position of having all his desires fulfilled and being happy with who he is, what he has, and where he is. Because of this the Ring is unable to influence him in any way, he has no desire to be anything other than himself nor does he wish to extend his mastery beyond the boundaries set by himself. As for it being a Test, Tom has no need or even interest in testing himself. It could also be said that Bombadil and the Ring shows that rather than the problem being that Power Corrupts, a truer statement might be that Power attracts the Corruptible.

 

[Olorgando]

… rather than the problem being that Power Corrupts, a truer statement might be that Power attracts the Corruptible.

It very probably does. But they are late-comers, at least when starting out as non-corrupt. When they arrive, the places of power are already occupied by those who were at least partially corrupt to start with. An extremely interesting book on this topic is John Dean's "Conservatives without Conscience", © 2006 John Dean and Viking Penguin, a member of Penguin Group (USA) Inc., ISBN: 0-670-03774-5.

 

[Deleted member 12094]

This is what JRRT said about Tom Bombadil (Letter 144):

There is of course a clash between 'literary' technique, and the fascination of elaborating in detail an imaginary mythical Age (mythical, not allegorical: my mind does not work allegorically). As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists); and I have perhaps from this point of view erred in trying to explain too much, and give too much past history. [...] And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).​

​

Tom Bombadil is not an important person – to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment'. I mean, I do not really write like that: he is just an invention (who first appeared in the Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. but if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.​

I think that explains everything... or nothing!

 

[Olorgando]

More nothing. As I've stated before, I consider the "Letters", as interesting as they are for quite a bit of (trivial) detail provided in them, a source to be viewed with the deepest suspicion as far as fundamentals in JRRT's writings. They were composed in "Lewisian" (and very un-Entish!) haste, and not subject to the sometimes merciless revision he subjected practically everything he prepared for official publication. And at times he was unable to find what he had actually written elsewhere which might have contradicted his statements in letters. The LoTR manuscripts had gone over to Marquette University by earls 1958, for example.
So what are we left with?
The One Ring has absolutely no power over Tom Bombadil, it is impotent with regard to him; and it contains the better part of Sauron's native power at the time of its forging. This native power, or what remained with Sauron, had taken two massive blows since the forging: the destruction of Númenor, and having the One Ring (and the finger it was on) cut from his hand by Isildur. Both resulted in the destruction of Sauron's respective Hröa of the time, the rebuilding of which drained his waning powers enormously each time.
Would even a Sauron with his One Ring have been able to "do" anything against Tom Bombadil? I definitely think not. Wreck Tom's countryside, perhaps, which would make Tom leave Middle-earth in disgust. But the diminished Third-Age Sauron (and let us not forget that Huan could have, and nearly did, destroy him - his then Hröa still capable of rapid shape-shifting. The damage Huan did to Sauron short of physical destruction seem to have destroyed Sauron's shape-shifting ability, even making re-forming one new Hröa in later times extremely arduous and time-consuming.
(Sending my Monty Python gremlins back to their rooms from which they had escaped without permission.) 😁

 

[Grond]

More nothing. As I've stated before, I consider the "Letters", as interesting as they are for quite a bit of (trivial) detail provided in them, a source to be viewed with the deepest suspicion as far as fundamentals in JRRT's writings. They were composed in "Lewisian" (and very un-Entish!) haste, and not subject to the sometimes merciless revision he subjected practically everything he prepared for official publication. And at times he was unable to find what he had actually written elsewhere which might have contradicted his statements in letters. The LoTR manuscripts had gone over to Marquette University by earls 1958, for example.
So what are we left with?
The One Ring has absolutely no power over Tom Bombadil, it is impotent with regard to him; and it contains the better part of Sauron's native power at the time of its forging. This native power, or what remained with Sauron, had taken two massive blows since the forging: the destruction of Númenor, and having the One Ring (and the finger it was on) cut from his hand by Isildur. Both resulted in the destruction of Sauron's respective Hröa of the time, the rebuilding of which drained his waning powers enormously each time.
Would even a Sauron with his One Ring have been able to "do" anything against Tom Bombadil? I definitely think not. Wreck Tom's countryside, perhaps, which would make Tom leave Middle-earth in disgust. But the diminished Third-Age Sauron (and let us not forget that Huan could have, and nearly did, destroy him - his then Hröa still capable of rapid shape-shifting. The damage Huan did to Sauron short of physical destruction seem to have destroyed Sauron's shape-shifting ability, even making re-forming one new Hröa in later times extremely arduous and time-consuming.
(Sending my Monty Python gremlins back to their rooms from which they had escaped without permission.) 😁

Tom is one of the "others" from the outer world and was a very powerful Ainu; hence the Ring would have no effect on him. He , being so much more powerful than Sauron, would have seen it as trivial. Tom had no ambition to power in Middle earth. I wish we could have heard the conversations between Gandalf and Tom.

 

[Miguel]

Tom is a good neighbor.

 

[Olorgando]

Tom is a good neighbor.

I had this short "what would Old Man Willow have thought of your statement?" flash.
But then even when rescuing the four Hobbits, Tom "only" resorted to song (but in much of mythology, legend, and fairy tale, that can be a very powerful weapon!).
Just thinking - Tom could have chopped OMW up for firewood thousands of years ago, probably …

 

[Grond]

I had this short "what would Old Man Willow have thought of your statement?" flash.
But then even when rescuing the four Hobbits, Tom "only" resorted to song (but in much of mythology, legend, and fairy tale, that can be a very powerful weapon!).
Just thinking - Tom could have chopped OMW up for firewood thousands of years ago, probably …

That would be like chopping up an old buddy.