"There's always smoke from Isengard"

[aragil]

How unlikely is it? In any case, Pippin (who IMO has been correctly portrayed as being a bit slow in the uptake) probably did not understand the significance of the deforestation until later. I like what Billy Boyd said on the EE commentary (it was one of the only intelligent things that came out of team M&P during the whole 3.5 hour ordeal)- that Merry had appealed to Treebeard with a general call to "do the right thing", and had failed to rouse the Ents. Pippin, on the other hand, shows Treebeard exactly how Saruman effects him, in a very personal way, and this was the only way to be succesful.

 

[joxy]

Pippin (who IMO has been correctly portrayed as being a bit slow in the uptake) probably did not understand the significance of the deforestation until later.
Pippin, on the other hand, shows Treebeard exactly how Saruman effects him, in a very personal way, and this was the only way to be succesful.

Why "correctly"?
We all know that PJ's Pippin is more of a slapstick comic than a thinker, but the real Pippin?!
So you're saying the reason he didn't mention it while he was mentioning everything else, and then didn't remember it, or think it mattered, until Treebeard was setting them on their way home, is that he's slow on the uptake?
Or have I misunderstood, yet again?

 

[aragil]

Why "correctly"?
We all know that PJ's Pippin is more of a slapstick comic than a thinker, but the real Pippin?!

The 'real' Pippin is closer to the one in the movie than you'd like to think, apparently. Re-read just about any section from the journey from Hobbiton to Rivendell. Think of who told the story of Bilbo's Ring trick at the Prancing Pony, or who dropped the rock down the well in Moria, or who gazed in the Palantir. For that matter, look at the dialog between Gandalf and Pippin as the two are about to meet Denethor. Up until that point, Pippin didn't even realize that Aragorn was the heir to the throne of Gondor!!!

So you're saying the reason he didn't mention it while he was mentioning everything else, and then didn't remember it, or think it mattered, until Treebeard was setting them on their way home, is that he's slow on the uptake?
Or have I misunderstood, yet again?

The only thing he mentions in the scene is that there is smoke coming up from South (he later asks Merry what the lines of troops leaving Isengard are).
It is quite possible that he wouldn't think the stumps there mattered- perhaps he thought Treebeard was aware of them, and didn't put 2 and 2 together until after the Entmoot. This would be entirely within the character of book-Pippin, IMO.

 

[simbelmyne]

It's a very short scene, the idea is weird anyway, and it simply hadn't occurred to me.

Hear, hear! I also had no idea that M & P were climbing up Treebeard to see things he "couldn't" see until I read it here. And now that I know, it's still confusing. He is a guardian of the forest, he should have a pretty decent idea what's happening there in a spot he frequently walks by. And I say frequently because he walks by on the way home...it can't have been too far from where he picked up M and P. And it's not like the top of Treebeard's head is above the tree line while his eyes are far below...he isn't that tall! You also would think at least one ent at the moot would have seen/heard the forest being defiled.

Ents are slow-moving, not slow-witted. PJ goes to all the trouble of showing their deliberate slowness and then fails to show how this leads to wisdom...

 

[aragil]

He is a guardian of the forest, he should have a pretty decent idea what's happening there in a spot he frequently walks by. And I say frequently because he walks by on the way home...it can't have been too far from where he picked up M and P.

I promise everybody here that I won't repeat this again:
{Sounds of cheering}
Treebeard only walks by this point ONCE after Saruman has the trees cut down. One time. If anybody thinks that one instance constitutes 'frequently', then I recommend frequent trips to the dictionary to look the word up.
How do I know that he walked by one time? Because we are shown it in the movie- where we see that in spite of his height, Treebeard can not see over the trees, while Merry and Pippin can. A chance occurrence that the trees would be of such a convenient height right there? Absolutely- just like dozens of other unlikely occurences that DO happen in both the book and the movie.
Is it very far from where he picked them up? Well, in the books Treebeard lives 70,000 'ent-strides' from the hill. Assuming that an ent-stride is like a human stride (1/2 the height of the creature striding- Treebeard is 14' tall), this would make it 175,000 yards, which is over 100 miles. In the movie (all other things being equal) it would be even farther, as a direct line from where Merry and Pippin were picked up (where the Entwash flows out of Fangorn) goes nowhere near Isengard. How often does Treebeard go that route? No idea, but it does not seem so irregular to me that he might not see the devastation, nor that any of the other Ents in the Entmoot had not seen it either. After all, shepharding trees does not usually require such constant vigil. Remember Treebeard's testimony about his approach to the job when he was younger and (presumably) hastier?

'The woods were like the woods of Lothlórien. only thicker stronger, younger. And the smell of the air! I used to spend a week just breathing.'

Ents are slow-moving, not slow-witted. PJ goes to all the trouble of showing their deliberate slowness and then fails to show how this leads to wisdom...

Ents are also very isolationist and inward looking. If they don't feel that they are threatened by war, then they will not go to war themselves. Before the moot they feel concerned for the Elves and Men, but not necessarily threatened. After they see the devastation, that feeling of concern quickly changes to anger. Voila.

 

[joxy]

I won't repeat this again:
Treebeard only walks by this point ONCE after Saruman has the trees cut down.

Yes, you did mention it before!
I wasn't convinced then, and I'm still not.
Have I got you right - the devastation of the trees has taken place very recently, within a very short period of time? The extra smoke "these days" has also been very recent? If so, then Saruman must have an amazingly quick manufacturing process.

 

[joxy]

....shepharding trees does not usually require such constant vigil.

One of the thoughts that set off this thread was that the smoke, as well as the metal and the wheels, should have given Treebeard the incentive to increase his vigil!

 

[aragil]

The events, as I see them, are thus:
1) Sometime early on in FotR, Saruman is told by Sauron to build an army. He then begins cutting down the trees within Isengard. We'll put this at sometime in October.
2) Saruman builds his army in relatively short order, using some magical methods to meld Man and Orc. The results are fully grown Uruk-hai which can fight and speak (limited) English/Westron. This is quite a deviation from the books, but I believe it falls into the "changes due to cinematic medium" category. I will put this period of time from about October to March. During this time there is a lot of smoke coming out of Isengard, but no trees in Fangorn have been harmed. Yet.
3) All of the Uruk-hai are 'born', but they are not yet equipped. Saruman says that he wants them armed post-haste, and one of his orc leaders complains that there is not enough fuel for the fires, so they can not make all the weapons/armor required. Saruman responds that they should take advantage of all those trees over in Fangorn. This occurs after Merry and Pippin have been captured, very shortly before they meet Treebeard. Given the distance from this part of the forest to the point where Treebeard meets M&P, it is more than likely that he is already over there.

So there you have it. Smoke has been rising for a while because Saruman has been cutting down his own trees within Isengard. This would certainly be regrettable for the Ents, but they don't really have the authority to intervene. Cutting down trees in Fangorn is of course a different matter, and the discovery of this treachery leads to swift retaliation.

 

[Morgaphry]

Within Fangorn, the Ents are less vigilant than of old because they are a dwindling race. There are too few of the Ents left to mangae them. (the Trees of the Forest.)

When the hobbits see the smoke rising from Isengard, they would probably be a bit more concerned with the thousands of Orcs puring out and heading east towards their friends.

Pippin is not just a slapstick character. Anyone who thinks so has conveniently forgotten the final two movies.
He jumps on a cave troll and stabs it in the head repeatedly.
He and Merry sacrifice themselves to let Frodo escape.
He rips off his Lorien brooch to inform Aragorn that they are alive.
He brings about the destruction of Saruman by arousing the wrath of the Ents.
He becomes a Citadel Guard.
He can sing.
He saves Gandalf (If he wasn't immortal) and Faramir's life.
He lights the beacon, summoning the Rohirrim.
He kills a mountain troll at the Black Gate
He is also a good shot with a rock.

Thanks
Morgaphry

 

[simbelmyne]

In the movie (all other things being equal) it would be even farther, as a direct line from where Merry and Pippin were picked up (where the Entwash flows out of Fangorn) goes nowhere near Isengard. How often does Treebeard go that route? No idea, but it does not seem so irregular to me that he might not see the devastation

He takes M & P right by Isenguard on the way back to his house...it can't be nearly as out of the way as it would be in the book. MAYBE that route isn't one he takes often, but Isenguard is a lot closer then where he was hanging around and found Merry and Pippin.

Before the moot they feel concerned for the Elves and Men, but not necessarily threatened.

If Saruman's mind has become metal and wheels, and all the trees of Isenguard have already been cut down to fuel the continuous fire...even a PJ ent should be able to figure out that throwing Quickbeam on the fire isn't far behind

 

[joxy]

....one of his orc leaders complains that there is not enough fuel for the fires, so they can not make all the weapons/armor required. Saruman responds that they should take advantage of all those trees over in Fangorn. This occurs after Merry and Pippin have been captured, very shortly before they meet Treebeard.

The incident appears only in the EE version, which leaves the cinema version as confusing as ever.
For EE owners it does answer the question, but it depends on certain other factors.
It needs the orc-leader/Saruman conversation to have taken place at the same time as P&M's escape, which I doubt, though another contributor has suggested it actually is the case.
It needs Saruman to have an amazingly quick manufacturing process, as I suggested above.
Also you have omitted two other instructions from S, at the same time, to the o-l: block the stream, and build the dam.
What is the total time factor from o-l/S chat to P's plot working?
One day, two?
All those trees felled, and burned, all the necessary manufacturing processes completed, all the new weapons and armour distributed, the stream blocked, the dam built? Does the dam look as if were built yesterday, to be destroyed today?

I still don't know why P&M didn't simply tell Treebeard about the felling when they saw it - if they saw it from the rocky peak -
I'm still not convinced about that, either!

 

[simbelmyne]

It needs the orc-leader/Saruman conversation to have been almost as simultaneous in "real time" time with P&M's escape as in "screen time", which another contributor has suggested actually is the case.
Saruman must have an amazingly quick manufacturing process, as I suggested above.

It further confuses me that after the orc-leader tells Saruman that there is no more fuel and they decide to take trees from Fanghorn, PJ shows old footage...the exact same shots of trees falling into the pits that was shown in FOTR when they were removing trees from Isenguard. Not a big deal in itself, but it certainly doesn't help to establish a timeline. If we had actually seen trees being removed from Fanghorn that was timed correctly, it might have made more sense. (not to mention given a more TANGIBLE reason why Treebeard/other Ents have no idea what is happening)

 

[joxy]

....PJ shows old footage...the exact same shots of trees falling into the pits that was shown in FOTR when they were removing trees from Isenguard.
If we had actually seen trees being removed from Fanghorn that was timed correctly, it might have made more sense.
(not to mention given a more TANGIBLE reason why Treebeard/other Ents have no idea what is happening)

I thought those were the same shots, but didn't venture to mention it.
With your support, I've checked, and they are the same, with no hint of an explanation.
If some actual felling in Fangorn had been shown it certainly would have restored some sense, but probably, by the time PJ realised the confusion he had created, it was too late to film any.
I suppose it's too much to suggest that he should also have shown the blocking of the stream and the construction of the dam, which Saruman also instructed when he ordered the felling of Fangorn!
And, of course, we really do need a better reason for all the ents to have remained ignorant of what was happening, right up to the denouement of P's plot. Hundreds of orcs cutting down trees must have made enough noise to give someone a hint of it.

 

[Morgaphry]

I'm fairly sure that not many people really care about the difference between an Isengard tree falling through the air and a Fangorn tree falling through the air.

 

[joxy]

....not many people really care about....

I learn new things here all the time. You need to "really care" about something before you mention it here?

 

[Morgaphry]

One must really care in order to take the time and effort to make such a small issue bigger than it should or needs to be.

 

[aragil]

It further confuses me that after the orc-leader tells Saruman that there is no more fuel and they decide to take trees from Fanghorn, PJ shows old footage...the exact same shots of trees falling into the pits that was shown in FOTR when they were removing trees from Isenguard.

Not exactly true. The shots of the (same) trees falling in Isengard is shown, then the Orc captains says that there is not enough fuel, then Saruman mentions Fangorn. We are never shown further shots of Orcs chopping down trees (excepting the Uruk-hai with Merry and Pippin- which I believe is also re-used footage from FotR), so we as viewers are also supposed to be shocked when we see the devastation to the forest. Not sure if that is the effect it had, but I believe that is what they were meaning to do.

And also, a (somewhat) revised timeline. Saruman tells the Orc captain that he wants the Uruk-hai ready to march in two weeks. I'm not sure that the scene with Merry, Pippin and Treebeard is supposed to be a full two weeks later, but certainly it is not long after Saruman gives the order to chop down the trees. Is this time enough to build a dam? I dunno- IMO it's at least plausible.

joxy- If Pippin does not see the devastation from his perch on Treebeard's shoulder, then how in the world would he come up with his plan? There is no evidence that he DIDN'T see it; and he comes up with a plan which suggests that he DID see it. Where's the problem?
An explanation has been given as to why Pippin doesn't mention the clearcut to Treebeard- he does not understand the significance until later. What is wrong with this explanation? It certainly fits in with the character of Pippin, IMO.

 

[joxy]

....we as viewers are also supposed to be shocked when we see the devastation to the forest.
If Pippin does not see the devastation from his perch on Treebeard's shoulder, then how in the world would he come up with his plan? There is no evidence that he DIDN'T see it; and he comes up with a plan which suggests that he DID see it. Where's the problem?
An explanation has been given as to why Pippin doesn't mention the clearcut to Treebeard- he does not understand the significance until later. What is wrong with this explanation? It certainly fits in with the character of Pippin, IMO.

I found those points about when the repeated tree-felling shots were shown, and about the timeline extending to two weeks,
but didn't venture to mention them!

We are supposed to be shocked when we see the devastation - at the same time as Treebeard, do you mean, or are we supposed to have seen it at the same time as P first did? I agree that P MUST have seen it from the peak, but I really don't think it's made clear that he did - I certainly didn't "know" that until very recently! The original "problem" WAS why he didn't tell Treebeard at the time, or tell Merry, or why Merry didn't see it for himself, or why they didn't talk about it at all - things don't have to have "significance" for these two to chat about them. There's an extra problem, now - you've just given it: WHY doesn't he realise the significance at any time between seeing it and that very last moment? The suggestion that the reason is in his character simply doesn't work.
Of course, MY original question was why Treebeard didn't know all about it already, without being told, without being tricked. Now we know he may have had two weeks, of film time, to find out, and of course in "reality" the smoke, metal, and wheels, told him about it long ago - to his later intense regret, he took no action about it then. How much better to have stuck to that "real" story, and avoided all these silly complications that inevitably arise from this invention.

 

[aragil]

We are supposed to be shocked when we see the devastation - at the same time as Treebeard, do you mean, or are we supposed to have seen it at the same time as P first did?

I meant we don't see it until Treebeard sees it. Of course, for myself (being a book reader) I wasn't very shocked- but I imagine that the reason the devastation wasn't shown until that moment was so that it would "shock" the audience, at least the Tolkien-naive audience.

To be honest I didn't catch Pippin's glance until Foehammer (of all people) mentioned it, but that was in December of 2002. The next time I saw it in the theaters I closely watched Pippin's expression during the scene, and I was satisfied that he was looking at the destruction. I put the blame for not seeing it on myself- though it was an admittedly brief sequence. I will happily point out that a common gripe among those claiming to be purists is that PJ's movies lack the subtlety of the books. A bit duplicitous to be clamouring for more subtle film-making on the one hand, but complaining that something else was not "made clear" enough on the other.

I would think that the problem of Pippin not realizing the significance of the devastation would replace the problem of him not chatting about it to Merry, not add to it. Merry can not see the devastation because he is slightly lower down on Treebeard's shoulders- Pippin climbs past him to get a better view of Saruman's troops, and that is apparently how he makes the discovery.
Why do I think that missing the significance is within Pippin's character? Because he does this several times in the books- ideas pop into his head in a flash (when they occur at all!), rather than coming around by methodical thought. Witness these two descriptions from the books:

Every now and again there came into his mind unbidden a vision of the keen face of Strider bending over a dark trail, and running, running behind. But what could even a Ranger see except a confused trail of orc-feet?
...
The thought came suddenly into Pippin's mind, as if caught direct from the urgent thought of his enemy: 'Grishnákh knows about the Ring! He's looking for it, while Uglúk is busy: he probably wants it for himself.'

These are sudden epiphanies- they don't seem to rely on prior thought or experience. And again I remind you that in the books Pippin never realizes that Aragorn is the heir to the throne of Gondor until he is told by Gandalf; nor in the movies does he realize that the wars in Rohan and Gondor will effect the Shire until he is told this by Merry. It doesn't seem at all improbable to me that Pippin does not understand the significance of the devastation, given these explicit mentions in the book. Remember, at the time of the scene in the movie he knows very little of Ents- he does not know that they will consider going to war against Saruman, and he certainly does not know that the Ents will refuse to go to war out of isolationist policy. It isn't until after the Ents say that they will "weather this storm" and Merry mentions that the "fires of Isengard" will burn the woods of the Shire that Pippin has his epiphany.

Finally, the "two weeks" of film time for Treebeard to discover the devastation is only a guess. The Saruman/Orc Captain conversation takes place after the orc draught scene with Merry and Pippin. In the books the two Hobbits met up with Treebeard two days after drinking the draughts, and in the movies only two night scenes are explicitly shown between Saruman giving the orders and the Hobbits meeting the old Ent. The smoke had been a warning to him for many months, but he could have been investigating it for many months and been satisfied that the deforestation was limited to Isengard. Given that even when he was a young 'hasty' Ent he was in the habit of doing nothing but 'breathing' for weeks at a time, it would not surprise me that he would not see the devastation in the relatively narrow window of time which he was given. After all, as bad as the clearcut was, it was limited to a few acres of the literally hundreds of square miles of Fangorn forest. This is not the same as saying that it was a forgivable error on his part, but I think this is in agreement with the books. "To his later intense regret", as you put it, is very accurate for both the books and the movie. However, it really bothers me that in the books the Ents did nothing. It went far beyond simply "looking the other way".

Skinbark {one of the first three Ents that are still alive during LotR} lived on the mountain-slopes west of Isengard. That is where the worst trouble has been. He was wounded by the Orcs, and many of his folk and his tree-herds have been murdered and destroyed. He has gone up into the high places, among the birches that he loves best, and he will not come down.

To me this passage is just too much. That an Ent (one of only thirty or so alive, apparently) could be actively attacked by orcs and other Ents could be killed without some form of retaliation is beyond belief. I actually prefer the movie version in which Treebeard's (and the other Ents') negligence is rather more forgivable. The trickery is, as has been said before, nice in that it keeps the Hobbits more involved as part of the story, rather than just the observers and bearers of tidings which they are in the books.

That being said, the one thing that also bothers me in the movies is the sudden arrival of the Ents after Treebeard yells. I think that an easy way to get around this would have been for Treebeard to tell the Hobbits he'll take them home while the Ents were still at the moot. Then Pippin could have done his trickery about going south, and the whole group of Ents could have accompanied them to the Southern border, just to make sure they arrived safely. It would have been an interesting contrast- the end of the Entmoot in the books with the Ents marching angrily and resolutely to war, with a similar column of Ents in the movie, but now walking quietly and somewhat ashamedly, but both columns headed towars Isengard. It also (I believe) would have made the whole thing appear less 'hasty', as all the Ents could have stared at the devastation for some time before heading through the clearcut.

 

[joxy]

I meant we don't see it until Treebeard sees it....I imagine that the reason the devastation wasn't shown until that moment was so that it would "shock" the audience....To be honest I didn't catch Pippin's glance until Foehammer (of all people) mentioned it....The next time I saw it in the theaters I closely watched Pippin's expression during the scene, and I was satisfied that he was looking at the destruction. I put the blame for not seeing it on myself- though it was an admittedly brief sequence....a common gripe....is that PJ's movies lack the subtlety of the books.
Merry can not see the devastation because he is slightly lower down on Treebeard's shoulders- Pippin climbs past him to get a better view of Saruman's troops, and that is apparently how he makes the discovery.

Finally, the "two weeks" of film time for Treebeard to discover the devastation is only a guess.
The trickery is, as has been said before, nice in that it keeps the Hobbits more involved as part of the story....
That being said, the one thing that also bothers me in the movies is the sudden arrival of the Ents after Treebeard yells. I think that an easy way to get around this would have been for Treebeard to tell the Hobbits he'll take them home while the Ents were still at the moot....It also (I believe) would have made the whole thing appear less 'hasty'....

Thanks for the clarification; it could have been either way.
So, "we" don't know until we see it, with Treebeard, and then, to work out how Pippin found out about it, we have to recall that glance of his, recall that he was higher than Merry, and note that Merry didn't try to climb higher to see what P could see and he, M, couldn't. Wow; that's a lot of recalling, and I'm still not certain that it was all deliberately done! You hadn't seen it, you had to learn from an unlikely source, then had to watch closely to see it, in the very brief sequence. I've been the same, much more recently. That's confusion, not the kind of subtlety I've been craving!

I agree again, about the time-line; it's still far from clear.
But, P's trick is nice because it keeps them more involved? How very much more involved they would have been if P had told M, they had told Treebeard at almost any stage, and then....

I agree about Treebeard's call and the immediate action. Yes, the place for T to decide would have been the moot, and then we would have had a dramatic and moving scene, far better than the very "hasty" muddle that we now have. People have told people, if they don't like parts of the film, why don't they do it better themselves. You have made a start on that, and I like it!

It would have saved us all a lot of trouble though, if PJ hadn't started off his domino run of confusion, by flatly contradicting the book story in the first place! ........... Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to....conceive!"