Thingol's sword...

[Ar-Feiniel]

Am I the only shmuck that didn't know that Thingol had a named sword? The first I know of him having anything to do with a named sword is when he's giving Anglachel to Beleg. My whole point is that if you name your sword it must be important to you. But then in the back of the Silmarillion is the name Aranruth- which is Thingol's sword that survived the ruin of Doriath and was possessed by the kings of Numenor. Is Aranruth mentioned in any other books?

 

[Alcuin]

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Is Aranruth mentioned in any other books?

[/FONT]Unfinished Tales, “A Description of Númenor,” footnote 2. I don’t know if that is the only other appearance. It does not seem to be in Letters, Morgoth’s Ring, War of the Jewels, or Peoples of Middle-earth.

It has been suggested in at least one other forum (not by me, but by a more knowledgeable participant) that Narsil was the mate to Aranrúth, given to Valandil of Andúnië by his grandfather, Tar-Elendil, a notion that strikes me as at least plausible.

Neat details are easily overlooked. That’s why we all hang around in good forums like TTF: we’re looking for them.

 

[Ar-Feiniel]

Thanks. I only have the first six HoME books and I don't have Unfinished Tales, either. Someday....

 

[Snaga]

Ar- I have to confess I'd forgotten about Thingol's sword. He wasn't known for doing a lot of fighting!

It has been suggested in at least one other forum (not by me, but by a more knowledgeable participant) that Narsil was the mate to Aranrúth, given to Valandil of Andúnië by his grandfather, Tar-Elendil, a notion that strikes me as at least plausible.

I'm not sure there is much to base that suggestion on, Alcuin. Narsil was said by Aragorn to have been made by Telchar. But we learn from Ar's source:

From Unfinished TalesThe King's sword was indeed Aranruth, the sword of Elu Thingol of Doriath in Beleriand, and that had descended to Elros from Elwing his mother. Other heirlooms there were beside: the Ring of Barahir; the great Axe of Tuor, father of Earendil; and the bow of Bregor of the House of Beor. Only the Ring of Barahir father of Beren One-Handed survived the Downfall; for it was given by Tar-Elendil to his daughter Silmarien and was preserved in the House of the Lords of Andunie, of whom the last was Elendil the Faithful who fled from the wrack of Numenor to Middle-earth.

So therefore, Narsil could not have been an heirloom of the House of the Lords of Adunie that escaped from Numenor. I conclude that it must have been a gift to Elendil when he came to Middle-Earth. My theory is that it was given by Celebrimbor, directly or indirectly. Celebrimbor was son of Curufin, from whom Beren took Angrist. Angrist was the knife he used to cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. It was also wrought by Telchar. So perhaps the sword was also given at the same time, and passed to Celebrimbor.

Only speculation, but it seems to fit the known facts.

 

[Alcuin]

[Narsil] could not have been an heirloom of the House of the Lords of Adunie that escaped from Numenor.

I am not certain that, even were it the mate of Aranrúth, would Narsil fall into a category of “heirlooms” of the House of Elros. Just as Glamdring was the mate to Orcrist, and so we may presume the two were almost identical in make, balance, handling, and edge, Glamdring Foe-Hammer was the personal weapon of Turgon King of Gondolin, and so of the two was the more illustrious blade. (Gandalf took it; Thorin got Orcrist, and seems to have been delighted.) The list you cite contains personal possessions of the forebears of Elros: the Ring of Barahir, the Axe of Tuor, the bow of Bregor (Barahir’s father, Beren’s grandfather). My great-uncle’s tuxedo is great to wear to the fraternity formal dance, but I would rather have my grandfather’s. By the same token, Narsil might be “just as well made” as Aranrúth, were we to suppose they were both the handiwork of Telchar, but were I Elros, Aranrúth, my great-grandfather’s personal weapon, a treasured heirloom, is preferable to its mate, which would be a treasure but not an heirloom.

I conclude that [Narsil] must have been a gift to Elendil when he came to Middle-Earth. My theory is that it was given by Celebrimbor, directly or indirectly. Celebrimbor was son of Curufin, from whom Beren took Angrist. Angrist was the knife he used to cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. It was also wrought by Telchar. So perhaps the sword was also given at the same time, and passed to Celebrimbor.

An admirable and solid theory. Telchar made several items that made their way into the hands of men and elves. We know that Narsil and Angrist were two of these, and the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin a third. I think the inference is that Telchar made lots of other things not explicitly listed as well. We know also that Gamil Zirak, the Dwarven smith of Nogrod who was Telchar’s master, made many items that found their way into the treasuries of Thingol. To imagine either that Aranrúth might have been his work or that of his illustrious student, Telchar, would not take any stretch of the imagination. In “Of the Sindar” in Silmarillion, it says that

...Thingol took thought for arms, ... and these at first the Naugrim smithied for him; for they were greatly skilled in such work, though none among them surpassed the craftsmen of Nogrod, of whom Telchar the smith was greatest in renown. ... in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail of linked rings, which was first contrived by the smiths of Belegost, their work had no rival.
At this time therefore the Sindar were well-armed, and they drove off an creatures of evil, and had peace again; but Thingol's armouries were stored with axes and with spears and swords, and tall helms, and long coats of bright mail; for the hauberks of the Dwarves were so fashioned that they rusted not but shone ever as if they were new-burnished. And that proved well for Thingol in the time that was to come.

Since Thingol would be first-armed and best-armed of all the inhabitants of Doriath, it seems to me that one could reasonably construct from the context that Aranrúth was forged by the Dwarves, and that Narsil might reasonably be its mate. (If he made such a gift to his grandson Valandil, Tar-Elendil would signify that the line of Silmariën, his eldest child, was no less noble that that of Meneldur, who became ruler of Númenor under a rule that Meneldur’s son Aldarion would set aside in favor of his daughter, Ancalimë; setting in place the claim that Arvedui of Fornost and his wife Fíriel, the only surviving child of Ondoher, laid upon the throne of Gondor, which the Steward Pelendur rejected.) And in Unfinished Tales, “Narn i Hîn Húrin”, “The Departure of Túrin” (just before the beginning of “Túrin in Doriath”), Tolkien writes,

Now Thingol had in Menegroth deep armouries filled with great wealth of weapons: metal wrought like fishes’ mail shining like water in the moon; swords and axes, shields and helms, wrought by Telchar himself or by his master Gamil Zirak the old, or by elven-wrights more skilful still. For some things he had received in gift that came out of Valinor and were wrought by Fëanor in his mastery, than whom no craftsman was greater in all the days of the world.

From this passage we might even conclude that Aranrúth was the work of Fëanor.

We are not told who forged Aranrúth, or when it came into the possession of Thingol; whether it was his first sword, his favorite sword, the sword he had when he died; or just the latest, neatest, newest “technology” recently devised by the Noldor/Sindar/Naugrim.

 

[Alcuin]

(running on, as it were, ad infinitum...)

We know that the Dragon Helm of Dor-Lómin was made by Telchar of Nogrod for Azaghâl Lord of Belegost. Azaghâl gave it to Maedhros, Maedhros to Fingon, Fingon to Hador, and Hador to his son Galdor, and Galdor to his son Húrin; Húrin could not wear it comfortably (he was smaller of stature than his father), and he left it behind in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad; and so Morwen his wife sent it to Turin her son in his exile in Doriath. (This chain of custody is established in the passage in Unfinished Tales immediately preceding the material on Gamil Zirak.) So to propose as you do that Narsil might have come to Elendil by way of, say, Gil-galad from Celebrimbor would not be astonishing. As you astutely point out, it might easily have come from Telchar to Curufin to Celebrimbor to Gil-galad to Elendil. I would only point out that regarding this chain of custody, in Silmarillion, “Of Beren and Lúthien” (page 208 in the 2002 Ballantine/DelRey paperback edition close at hand; I cannot lay my hands on my hardback; the quote is a bit difficult to locate), Tolkien remarks that when Orodreth expelled Celegorm and Curufin from Nargothrond for their misrule of the city in place of and in spite of Orodreth,

In that time Celebrimbor the son of Curufin repudiated the deeds of his father, and remained in Nargothrond…

And the text goes on to say that Huan followed Celegorm into exile. It was immediately after this that these two sons of Fëanor fell upon Beren, and Lúthien, that Curufin attempted to kidnap Lúthien.

Then Beren sprang from before Celegorm full upon the speeding horse of Curufin that had passed him; and the Leap of Beren is renowned among Men and Elves. He took Curufin by the throat from behind, and hurled him backward, and they fell to the ground together. The horse reared and fell, but Lúthien was flung aside, and lay upon the grass. … Beren throttled Curufin…

Celegorm set to ride him down with a spear from horseback, and Huan intervened; then Curufin attempted to murder Lúthien by shooting her with an arrow and nearly killed Beren instead. I do not deny that Narsil might have come into Celebrimbor’s possession as I believe you describe; however, it seems to me that it would have to taken place before the brothers left Nargothrond; though perhaps Narsil was a lesser sword to them than one forged by their father in Valinor, particularly were they constrained to take little with them in haste, since the folk of Nargothrond had to be restrained by Orodreth from killing Celegorm and Curufin; and in such straights, perhaps the brothers might well regard even so great a sword as Narsil in lieu of Fëanor’s craft..

As far as I know, nothing in the published material says that Aranrúth was or was not forged by Telchar; or that Narsil had or had not passed through Thingol’s horde. I believe the person who suggested that both had been both forged by Telchar and part of Thingol’s horde (he is, again, more learnéd than I) made his suggestion based upon what struck him (and me) as a pleasing plotline symmetry that would arise out of a gift to the first Lord of Andúnië by his grandfather the King of Númenor of a sword that was mate to that of the King’s: two royal swords, two royal lines, and ultimately, two lines of Númenórean Kings (the House of Elros and its offspring, the House of Elendil). To my mind, were I Elros, Aranrúth, my great-grandfather’s own personal weapon, would be preferable to its mate. And so a gift of Narsil to Valandil by Tar-Elendil would be a gift with sublime meaning: the Lords of Valandil are just as noble as the Kings of Númenor, but – well, the House of Elros has the throne of Armenelos and Aranrúth, and the House of Valandil has … Andúnië. And Narsil. Particularly in light of the change in the law two generations later, it strikes me as appropriately (and somewhat cruelly) ironic.

Of course, Elendil could also have found Narsil in a troll hoard, just as Gandalf and Thorin found Glamdring and Orcrist. We simply are not told in the published material how Narsil came into his possession. Perhaps some gripping back story lies awaiting for us in a dusty box in Oxford or Marquette. But it would seem unlikely – and be unseemly – were the heir of the last Lord of Andúnië to take ship with his sons and closest followers without a sword. Though, I suppose, arguments could be made why he should, and might, and would have done so. Feel free to make them and expound upon them. I will follow as best I can and as time allows.

Don’t misunderstand me, Snaga: I am not disagreeing with you. There is no basis in the published material, as far as I know, for me to disagree. (If I am mistaken, I am confident someone will provide quotations of the appropriate passages and rip me into tiny little shreds.) It simply strikes me more prosaic if Elendil received Narsil from Celebrimbor by way of Gil-galad than if he stumbled upon it in a Rhudaurian cave, and yet even more poetic if Valandil received it from Tar-Elendil. To me, it makes for a richer tale, deeper foreshadowing, fuller complexion, darker irony, and greater beauty. But that is just my preference; your preference may be otherwise, and since I see it as merely speculation and preference, I am delighted to learn yours – and everyone else’s – as to the specific origins of Narsil. And so I say again, if you can embellish your proposition, please continue!

In the meantime, we are tentatively pinning furtive sketches of leaves onto Niggles’ Tree. And I hope that this gives Niggle, should he see and hear us, cause to smile. It makes me smile; and I hope it shines a snaggly smile on Snaga’s visage, too.

 

[Snaga]

Well I do like your account, Alcuin. It is, as you say, pleasing. I think, were I to have time to do so, I could construct something that would make my account less prosaic, and no doubt it would be fun to do so. It is not so difficult to create portentious constructs that add weight to a tale.

I think there is a problem with doing so with your account. For the more grand the tale behind the giving of the sword to the ancestors of Elendil, the more you have to view its as an heirloom of their house, rather than just 'great-uncle's suit'. I accept you can use your body-swerve to maintain your position and for sure it is worth it, for such an elegant tale! But it is a body-swerve, and I'd prefer a tale that didn't involve the sword going to Numenor to reach Elendil.

 

[Alcuin]

Ok, I’m game.

Aranrúth was the preferred sword if you were King of Númenor: the House of Elros ruled Númenor, and the sword was that of Elu and Dior. Supposing Narsil the spare, Narsil is the grand-uncle’s fine suit, but Aranrúth is grandfather’s. Literally. Aranrúth is an heirloom of the House of Elros, because it was used by the ancestors; Narsil is a treasure, but not an heirloom.

Narsil is the spare, and the House of Valandil of Andúnië is also a kind of spare: Númenor and the House of Elros fall, but the Dúnedain kingdoms and the House of Elendil survive. For the House of Elendil, Narsil is indeed a treasured heirloom, as Aragorn recounts to Boromir in “The Council of Elrond”:

‘…the Sword that was Broken is the Sword of Elendil that broke beneath him when he fell. It has been treasured by his heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isildur’s Bane, was found. Now you have seen the sword that you have sought, what would you ask? Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?’

I venture to observe that there are few heirlooms left to the House of Elendil in the North: the Ring of Barahir, which Aragorn has given to Arwen as a symbol of their troth (an “engagement ring,” if you will); the Elendilmir (the one made for Valandil after the original worn by Isildur was lost with him in the Gladden) and the Sceptre of Annúminas (formerly the rod of office of the Lords of Andúnië, “perhaps the most ancient work of Men’s hands preserved in Middle-earth” since the Axe of Tuor (Dramborleg, or ‘Thudder-Sharp’)and the bow of Bregor were lost), symbols of the kingship of Arnor and both in the keeping of Elrond after the fall of Fornost until returned separately to Aragorn during the War of the Ring; and the shards of Narsil. There are four items in this list; there were also four in the list you cited for Númenor; only the Ring of Barahir is listed in both, and it is said to have been given by Tar-Elendil to Silmariën. (Might this be a case of foresight on the part of Tar-Elendil, so that his namesake some 2400 years later might preserve the gift of Finrod Felagund and renew the kingship among the exiled Númenóreans?) To the inhabitants of Númenor, the heirlooms of Kings must have seemed more impressive than those of the Lords of Andúnië, with the exception of the Ring of Barahir; but to the Dúnedain of Middle-earth, the descendants of the Lords of Andúnië were in fact the Kings of the Númenóreans in exile, and their heirlooms were most honorable.

A final note about heirlooms here, concerning the Ring of Barahir. The Ring of Barahir is of course the ring given to him by Finrod when Barahir saved his life in the Dagor Bragollach, as a ransom should Barahir in turn require succor among the Eldar. Beren killed an Orc-chieftain to retrieve his father’s severed hand with the ring, and used the ring in Menegroth and on the approaches to Nargothrond; Silmariën inherited it; the Dúnedain ransomed it from the Forodwaith after disaster befell Arvedui and the mariners of Lindon in the Icebay of Forochel; and finally Aragorn gave it to Arwen as a symbol of their life together. The Ring of Barahir was, as Arvedui told the Lossoth, “…a thing of worth beyond your reckoning. For its ancientry alone. It has no power, save the esteem in which those hold it who love my house. It will not help you, but if ever you are in need, my kin will ransom it with great store of all that you desire.” Yet the whole history of the Edain was bound up with those who bore that ring, and the line of the Peredhil among Men traveled not with the Kings of Númenor, but with the bearers of the ring of Barahir, until at last they were reunited in the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn.

I accept you can use your body-swerve to maintain your position and for sure it is worth it, for such an elegant tale! But it is a body-swerve, and I'd prefer a tale that didn't involve the sword going to Numenor to reach Elendil.

Now – in good humor, and for the sake of dragging out the thread – how did I body-swerve? There’s still no proof either way, it just struck me as a reasonable explanation of the origins of the sword, with lots of literary symbolism and cross-links in the story. Why would Gil-galad’s giving a sword to Elendil – who presumably had lost his or set aside a lesser one upon his arrival in Middle-earth – indicate a better storyline?