Think Tank Discusion: Flat vs Round?

[Chymaera]

In the book, Morgoth's Ring, in the first chapter. We see that Professor Tolkien has as he has ever done, rewritten and retold and rewritten his stories.

The Ainulindalë, a story that he had completed back in the 1930's was returned to again, after the completion of the 'Lord of the Rings'.

According to Christopher Tolkien, five different 'main drafts' were made: A, B, C, C*, and D.

Now Ainulindalë C* was a different story from the others, in that it was called the 'Round World' version (more or less, please don't nit-pick me too badly. I am just trying to get the discussion started ).

Now the Round World version, Tolkien called the Man's version as opposed to the Elvish Flat World version, which is the closer to what we see in the Published Silmarillion.

Now I have no idea on where I am going with this but Anc has dropped this one on my doorstep to get started . This does not seem to be where my skills lie.

So we have Tolkien rethinking his original idea of a Mythological, Elvish Flat World and looking at a more Scientific Mannish Round World.

When I first read this I felt saddened that he had doubts about was eventually published. But I came to understand that in the 50's the world was just coming onto the threshold of the 'Space Age' and I imagine that such rethinking was in vogue.

But in the end thankfully he could not fully adopt the Round World version without totally rewriting the whole story.

So at this point, I welcome all opinions and points of view on this subject. I hope we can come to some understanding on the matter.

 

[Confusticated]

I posted this awhile back then deleted it several days later since no replied and I figured I had gone off in the wrong direction with it and was embarrassed. But an OiE member PM'd me about it recently, and I think he wanted to reply but just hadn't had the time yet so it's back:


Hmm... not sure where Ancalagon is wanting this to go but if you guys just want opinions I'll give mine.

I'm perfectly fine with the Flat version being something that could not have really happend, and even more so I'm not too bothered by the earlier idea that this was according to the Eldar.

What bothers me more, is the solution to that 'problem'. The idea this Flat Earth and making of the Sun and Moon stuff, came to be attributed to men mixing their own (apparantly existing before they encounted the Eldar) beliefs and imaginings.

If we are to think that the Eldar would have known better, and to think that the Numenoreans would have learn right from them, then how can we also think that something as major as this crazy Sun and Moon belief by men was held onto?

Just how exactly did the men mix their crazy imagining in with the pure information from the Eldar? And how are we to know which is which?

The direct mixing of the belief the Sun and Moon were created well after Earth was, with the names of the Valar is in itself enough to make me wonder.

Now if I had crazy beliefs and the Noldor came and tought me better and informed me of the Gods and their names, why would I trust the Noldor about the Gods but go ahead and keep my crazy beliefs and mix them with the Gods that I didn't even know about before?

For me, there has to be a reason men did this and I can't imagine one, and as far as I know Tollkien did not give one. (I'm sure CT would have stuck it in Myths Transformed if he did, but there is nothing of the sort there.)Therefore I find the whole thing hard to swallow.

I got into this with Inderjit in another thread. He of course answered me with a quote by Tolkien that I had obviously already read, which didn't answer my concerns at all.

I know of nothing to answer them.
I'll ask here what I asked him there:

If the Silmarillion is mannish in origin and we know they messed up wih the Sun and Moon then how can we know that they got most of the other facts straight?

If they tossed in the first sunrise at Fingolfin's march across Hithlum, what else did they toss in? And how did they do this when they had been in a world with the Sun from their beginning? Not only should they have learned better from the Noldor, but their own legends of their past somehow told them there was no Sun and Moon until that moment?

So we can forget the possability that men should have got correct all the details of the First Age which they themselves had witnessed, only because they witnessed it and would know the truth. If you forget the Sun was in the sky, how do you remember details about battles or locations of the realms of the Eldar?

Who knows... maybe there was no Turin. (Am I the only one who likes that thought?)

Also, C* was written before LotR was completed according to CT's dating reasoning which he gives as the intro to Ainulindale in HoME X. Sorry to nitpick (especially since you asked us not to) but this is important in that it shows that even before LotR was published Tolkien was bothering with this idea, but he dropped it and took it up later after LotR was published.

CT also says that the feedback of that gal he sent B and C* too, might have been a reason that he wrote C and dropped the Round World.

Also the Drowning of Anadune (DA) is probably tied in to this (the time when Tolkien first started to wonder abou the flat vs round)but I can't go into that as I haven't read them, but only skimmed CT's commentaries and read a couple small bits. Perhaps it offers some insight into how men could have kept this Flat World belief while getting the other stuff right? I did see that it was Sauron who convinved men that the world was flat... but this means little to me right now since I haven't read all the stuff. It is only a detail that makes me think I aught to read it in search of answers. On the other hand, if men could be swayed into believe something like this, who knows how the history of the First Age was twisted for them too. So while this might be able to explain for me how men could continue to believe in the flat world in spite of the teaching of the Eldar, it can not convince me the other aspects of the Silmarillion are accurate if mannish, assuming there really was no Flat World.

That being so, I imagine that had Tolkien completed an Elvish Silmarillion... it would differ very greatly in a lot of areas (aside from the bits about the Sun Moon and Trees) from the mannish one. At least, in my opnion it would certianly be allowed to. I expect it would be two completely different legends. If they were very much alike in the details of the First Age, and of the Involvement of Ulmo, I would then wonder how men did get so much right.


I'd like to think The Silmarillion, and all the First Age writings, including the Annals, are elvish in origin.

Also, if all this stuff is from Bilbo's books then he must have got it right in Rivendell where Noldor dwell, so when was it all twisted, in Gondor? Didn't they know better by then, (and how much did they tinker with the LotR?) So where do these tales come from.

 

[Chymaera]

Thank you for reposting Nóm. I can't reply to all your points yet. (as I will have to do some more reading)

But my understanding at this time is that. The world was Flat right up until the time of the Drowning of Númenor. At that point Ilúvatar "changed the fashion of the world"

"Thus in after days, what by the voyages of ships, what by lore and star-craft, the kings of Men knew that the world was indeed round, and yet the Eldar were permitted to depart and come to the Ancient West and to Avallónë"

Men are always wont to beleive what their eyes tell them. And deny the 'impossible'

That's all for now I will try to go more indeapth latter on

 

[Arvedui]

This thread is moved out of the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil. Ideas and theories wanted.