Tolkien's HARD LOVES

Lhunithiliel · Sep 22, 2002

I open this thread to seek your attitude towards love.

But perhaps I’m going to disappoint those who have expected to find a discussion on matters of that cheerful and lighthearted feeling that love can often be.

I would like to provide this place for an open-hearted and open-minded discussion of difficult love relations – the way they are considered by Tolkien and the way we, as men an women of our days, understand them.

Tolkien is often said to have created a man’s world. Men ruled, men fought, men became heroes or traitors, men perished for glory or for loyalty to high causes… Only a few are the names of those women that had some serious impact on the history of ME.

Of love between those ME men and women is spoken not much. ME seems to be a place where love was not an issue to be much taken into consideration.
Yet, when Tolkien writes about love relations, almost all of them seem to be difficult, or impossible, or forbidden – hard loves!

For those of you who have read the Tale of Aldarion and Erendis (UT) here is my first topic:

Who is right and who is wrong, when two people, deeply in love with each other, still can become their worst enemies? How come that one loves and still allows him/her-self to most fiercely hurt the one who is loved?
What do you think of the hard love between these two?

And for those who haven’t read this tale yet, you’ll be most welcome to share your own attitude…….

So, let’s speak about hard love!

Lhunithiliel · Sep 23, 2002

I have seen so many threads about battles and weapons and great heroic deeds.....
WHY nobody wants to speak about love?

The Tale about Aldarion and Erendis is so powerful in emotions!
In fact it is a battle again - but a battle between characters, a battle of the feelings, of the hurt pride...

What do you think?

Ithrynluin · Sep 23, 2002

I was really interested in this topic when I first saw it but it has been a long time since I read the story of Aldarion and Erendis so I felt I couldn't really contribute anything. But I'll get back to you on that one Lhun! As soon as I re-read it.

gate7ole · Sep 25, 2002

I, of course, cannot judge who was wrong and who was right but I think the truth was somewhere in the middle. Aldarion on the one hand, did not act responsibly. He had a wife and a little child to raise, but still he abandonded them for long periods. Erendis was for many years a faithful and forgiving wife, but in the end, she couldn't restrain her wrath and accept her husband. As a result, not only a great love was destoyed, but also a child was raised in an inappropriate environment and the result was to become a fearfull queen (something like Elizabeth)
But then both had their excuses. Aldarion had never concealed his great love for the sea. Actually Erendis was warned by her mother (I think) that he would never reject the love of the sea. Sometimes he was even hindered to return earlier to Numenor. Besides his works at ME during his voyages were very important for the overthrow of Sauron. But does this give him the right to leave his wife and child? Or even abandon his kingdom for the sea? I think that since he had accepted the sceptre and a wife, he ought to stay loyal to them. No heart can contain two loves and equally satisfy them. There is no such thing as justice in love. But then again how could somebody accuse him? How do we know what would be our decision if we were in his position? I, at least cannot. I justify him. On the other hand, Erendis's actions are not driven by love. They are driven by hatred against someone that she once loved. Or hatred for herself because she still loves him. In both cases, her behaviour is not dignified by a great emotion (as in the case of Aldarion). This is the reason that eventually I do not justify her completely . She couldn't forgive him, not even for the shake of the child. Maybe Aldarion's decisions were too harsh for her to tolerate, but it is a sign of not being a noble person, capable of loving AND forgiving.

Lhunithiliel · Sep 25, 2002

I have to admit, I was greatly impressed by this tale!
And though a woman myself, I could not aprove of Erendis's attitude.
I think that her love for Aldarion died much long ago before she admitted it to herself. Instead came some painful ambition to tame this man - a man of great courage and vision and a spirit of a wanderer

But Aldarion, looking east towards the night, was silent. At last he answered, but softly, as one that speaks to himself: "The fair people of the Elves? The green shores? The mountains wreathed in cloud? The regions of mist and shadow beyond guess?...

Aldarion had become enamoured of the Great Sea, and of a ship riding there alone without sight of land, borne by the winds with foam at its throat to coasts and havens unguessed; and that love and desire never left him until his life's end.

...for Aldarion was a man long-sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth; and whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of Númenor and the power of its kings, and he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion...

It can not be true love if you say you love someone and then try to change him/her. Because even if you change this person up to your desires, then he/she will not be the same one you had become to love at first. Then, whom are you going to love?
And when this is happening with a person like Aldarion, such tries lead to disastrous tragedies.

Aldarion was changed: his face was become grey, cold, and hostile, as the sea when the sun suddenly veiled in dull cloud. Standing before his father he spoke slowly with tone of contempt rather than of wrath.

Aldarion, I think could not respond otherwise because his pride AND his feelings were deeply hurt.

. I have now neither wife, nor love of this land, left. I will go from this misenchanted isle of daydreams where women in their insolence would have men cringe.

And still he loved her to the end!

"It is far below my hope of her. She has dwindled; and if I have wrought this, then black is my blame. But do the large shrink in adversity? This was not the way, not even in hate or revenge! She should have demanded that a great house be prepared for her, called for a Queen's escort, and come back to Armenelos with her beauty adorned, royally, with the star on her brow; then well nigh all the Isle of Numenor she might have bewitched to her part, and made me seem madman and churl. The Valar be my witness, I would rather have had it so: rather a beautiful Queen to thwart me and flout me, than freedom to rule while the Lady Elestirne falls down dim into her own twilight."

---------
I wouldn't like to requote the tale, of course, but I just wanted to share my opinion. In their hard love it was Erendis who could not understand what love is in order to give it both - to her husband and to her daughter! Erendis's love for her child I would never call love but a pure egoism....just like her attitude towards Aldarion.

pohuist · Sep 25, 2002

I do not have much to add on the story, but generally speaking there is a good saying "There is only a small step from love to hatred". Strong love is such a powerful emotion that if something goes wrong your mind desperately seeks a way to discharge that negative impact. The way out comes in the form of hatred. And, BTW, its next to impossible to change someone character after they attain a tender age of 18. The love for wandering/seafaring is probably a character trait.

gate7ole · Sep 26, 2002

I’m really surprised that you take Aldarion’s part. I thought that being a woman, you would try to justify Erendis’ actions. I’m glad that we agree on the subject. (Though in the corner of my mind, I hoped you disagreed and would argue with me).

Lhunithiliel · Sep 27, 2002

Oh, gate7ole, it is precisely because I am a woman that I understood the situation like this!
A woman should never love a man just for the purpose of changing him! This is not love but a pure egoism!
And it doesn't matter if we are speaking about a love between a man and a woman or the love towards your children, or your friends... For there are different kinds of love, right?

Now, as a man to a woman, tell me, what is it that makes men more loyal to love-relations than a woman?
Take the couple in this tale, take the couple Aragorn-Arwen.. I can't feel the whole depth and truth in these relations on part of the women involved. It were the men who had sacrificed pride, friendships, loyalty etc... all in the name of the love for their women.... As for my gender-mates they just had to "decide" - to accept or not to accept the love they had been offered.
I don't believe this could be called love ! To love - doesn't it mean to sacrifice yourself for the other? To compromize, to forgive, to live with your partner's joys and sorrows.... And most important - to RESPECT him!
Nothing similar did Erendis showed...nor even Arwen, I'd say!
------------------

Though in the corner of my mind, I hoped you disagreed and would argue with me

Didn't you have enough in the Debate about the Ring?
And what is so good in debating me?

gate7ole · Sep 27, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Didn't you have enough in the Debate about the Ring?
And what is so good in debating me? [/B]

It's always good to argue with women. They have a much more different manner of debating, I would say a more noble way. And you also showed that you're a mostly adept debater.

Melian Le Fay · Sep 29, 2002

I haven't read the tale yet, but I thought I could say something on the main topic : why doesn't Tolkien say something more about romances is probably a topic for itself.... But the tale of Beren and Luthien (also forbidden love) is so... well, beautiful. She sacrifised her immortal life and faced the unknown for the sake of love... I always wondered how Beren felt about that? did he really want Luthien to die? No, i suppose he didn't. he must have felt sad about all that. but is seems like in his tales, every love has a price. every great love, that is. but, is it worth it? I say YES!

Lhunithiliel · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by Millena
I haven't read the tale yet, but I thought I could say something on the main topic : why doesn't Tolkien say something more about romances is probably a topic for itself.... But the tale of Beren and Luthien (also forbidden love) is so... well, beautiful. She sacrifised her immortal life and faced the unknown for the sake of love... I always wondered how Beren felt about that?

Just like Aragorn's attitude to Arwen's choice.. Right?
Just imagine how these men felt! What a responsibility! Their immortal beloved gave up the most precious gift they had from the Gods - immortality - for the sake of their love to those men... They really must have loved them! But the men, on their part, had to, from there on, live in such a way as to never let down their partners and to never make them feel sorry or disapointed for having made their choice... Hard love!!!

gate7ole · Sep 30, 2002

It is very interesting to figure out why Tolkien gave us three cases of a marriage between human and elf and all times the man is human and the woman elf. It seems that no male elf ever loved a female human. Tolkien seems a little unfair to female humans. I can only remember two examples of females that don’t look like housewifes: Eowyn and Niniel. A possible explanation is that Tolkien was disappointed by the women of his life, but his successful marriage contradicts it. Thus, I think the answer lies elsewhere. We know his intentions to present the elven race as a race of near perfection (with their flaws, but considerably few). So he described the male elves as great warriors, wise leaders and skillful craftsmen. Also, he wanted to describe the female elves as maidens having extraordinary beauty, being able to love passionately, faithful to their husbands. Thus, he decided to represent the above by showing how a man can forget his origin and love an elven maiden and how she can renounce her immortality for the love of a mortal. This giving of the gift of Illuvatar is the greatest altruistic action and dignifies the virtue of female elves. So, Tolkien gives his opinion of the ideal female, along with the ideal male, both in the face of elves.
As for the burden of Aragorn and Beren, we shouldn’t forget the burden of Arwen and Luthien when they were watching their lovers go to great perils for the sake of their love. Both parts in these unions had to be strong in will. Nobody said that their love was easy. They wanted to pass the limits and should struggle to be permitted.

Lhunithiliel · Sep 30, 2002

How very interesting point of view! And very true, too! That's why I called this thread "Hard Loves".
I wonder, really what made Tolkien "give" all this beauty and dignity and all...perfection mainly to the female elves? As far as I have learnt, he loved his wife dearly and before her - his mother. I read somewhere that actually the character of Arwen bore a lot of the features his mother had, while Luthien was his wife's image......or perhaps HIS image of them both...?

Now, don't get me wrong! I do not say that the women in these hard love relationships were to be LESS respected than men! I ADMIRE almost every feature of most of them! And others make me think over some truths in the human relations in the "real" life around us...
Thinkig about all this, I would confess that Luthien was IMO the one who really fought for her love and for her partner....

Hey, shall I include a poll? Something like "Whose love was the most difficult?" or "Who was the bravest warrior in the "Battles of the Heart?"

Melian Le Fay · Oct 1, 2002

gate7ole, you forgot to mention Morwen, Niniel's mother, who was said to be the most beatuful of the mortal women in the first age... maybe even in the entire history. Her beauty was so great (a lot like elven beauty) that she was called "Eledhwen"... I think, I'm not so sure about her nick name...

but as for the "hardest" of loves, I think it's a bit to hard to tell which one was the most difficult to achieve... Aragorn & Arwen remind me a lot of Beren & Luthien... Their fate seemed very similar... and the best prt of the tale is that both Arwen and Aragorn are descendants of Beren and Luthien... that is so epical, reminds me of greek mythos, or other antique myhts, which paid a lot of attention to origins of their characters - the high, noble origins...just like Aragorn and Arwen...
On the other hand, Idril and Tuor...? What ever happened to them? What happened to Tuor? It seemed to me that their fate was a bit easier than the one of the others... though they've achieved a lot, and did great, perilous deeds, they had no problems in achieving their love...

gate7ole · Oct 1, 2002

The fate of Idril and Tuor was (if I remember correctly) that they sailed to find Valinor, but never succeeded or returned to ME.
Do you really consider their fate easier than the others?
I agree that their marriage was not a problem.But then? Gondolin fell, they had to desert it and go to Sirion's outfalls. There they were attacked by the Feanoreans (for the Silmaril) and they had to leave the place and travel to the Great Sea. Their joy might be great, but it lasted only 7 years in Gondolin.
Beren and Luthien at least had a far greater period of joy at the "Place of the Dead Who Live" (or smth like that). As for Aragorn and Arwen, their fate was to be envied.
So, I conclude, Tuor and Idril were the mostly ill-fated of the 3 couples of human and elf.

Eledhwen · Oct 2, 2002

Aldarion and Erendis

Erendis was a golf widow par excellence, except that her husband's "other half" was the sea. The same conditions must have existed for all his married sailors, but not much is said about how their wives coped with the absences. Erendis allowed bitterness to poison not only her relationship with her husband, but all her relationships. The trouble is, it destroys the one who harbours it, not those who are the object of it, with the possible exception of her daughter who could not escape her mother's ire until she herself was also damaged.

Thanks for highlighting this story Llunithiliel. It's a classic and a tragedy, but most of the world has never read it.

Melian Le Fay · Oct 5, 2002

Originally posted by gate7ole
The fate of Idril and Tuor was (if I remember correctly) that they sailed to find Valinor, but never succeeded or returned to ME.
Do you really consider their fate easier than the others?
Beren and Luthien at least had a far greater period of joy at the "Place of the Dead Who Live" (or smth like that). As for Aragorn and Arwen, their fate was to be envied.
So, I conclude, Tuor and Idril were the mostly ill-fated of the 3 couples of human and elf.

but as for Tuor, it is said that he was counted as one of the noldor he loved so much... What does that mean?!

I ment to say that Idril and Tuor had least problems in achieving their love, but the rest of their life wasn't easy... you put it correctly, others had a longer life... I never realised it until now...
thanx, gate7ole!!!

Lhunithiliel · Oct 16, 2002

I have found a new example of a “hard love” – the relationship between Andreth and Aegnor.

Here is the part of the conversation between Finrod and Andreth:

'I have not asked for comfort,' said Andreth. 'For what do I
need it?'
'For the doom of Men that has touched thee as a woman,'
said Finrod. 'Dost thou think that I do not know? Is he not my
brother dearly loved? Aegnor: Aikanar, the Sharp-flame, swift
and eager. And not long are the years since you first met, and
your hands touched in this darkness. Yet then thou wert a
maiden, brave and eager, in the morning upon the high hills of
Dorthonion.'
'Say on!' said Andreth. 'Say: who art now but a wise-woman,
alone, and age that shall not touch him has already set winter's
grey in thy hair! But say not thou to me, for so he once did!'
'Alas!' said Finrod. 'That is the bitterness, beloved adaneth,
woman of Men, is it not? that has run through all your words. If
I could speak any comfort, you would deem it lordly from one
on my side of the sundering doom. But what can I say, save to
remind you of the Hope that you yourself have revealed?'
'I did not say that it was ever my hope,' answered Andreth.
'And even were it so, I would still cry: why should this hurt
come here and now? Why should we love you, and why should
ye love us (if ye do), and yet set the gulf between?' …….
'Speak of neither to me!' said Andreth. 'I desire neither. I was
young and I looked on his flame, and now I am old and lost. He
was young and his flame leaped towards me, but he turned
away, and he is young still. Do candles pity moths?'
'Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?' said
Finrod. 'Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanar the Sharp-flame loved
thee. For thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride
of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the
morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the North-
wind his flame will go out! Foresight is given to the Eldar in
many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee
thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go
forth before thee and he will not wish to return.'

Then Andreth stood up and stretched her hands to the fire.
'Then why did he turn away? Why leave me while I had still a
few good years to spend?'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'I fear the truth will not satisfy thee. The
Eldar have one kind, and ye another; and each judges the others
by themselves - until they learn, as do few. This is time of war,
Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child;
but prepare for death - or for flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor
have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then
what will become of this land? If his heart ruled, he would have
wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking
his kin, and thine. Love and loyalty hold him to his. What of
thee to thine? Thou hast said thyself that there is no escape by
flight within the bounds of the world.'

'For one year, one day, of the flame I would have given all:
kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth I am,' said Andreth.

'That he knew,' said Finrod; 'and he withdrew and did not
grasp what lay to his hand: elda he is. For such barters are paid
for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in
ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are
made.
'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred
and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief
it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could
befall would be that death should soon end it.'

'But the end is always cruel - for Men,' said Andreth. 'I
would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent.
I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I
could no longer run beside him! '

'Maybe not,' said Finrod. 'So you feel now. But do you think
of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have
stayed at thy side to uphold thee. Then pity thou wouldst have
had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so
shamed.
'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much
in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that
is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.
Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that
last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw thy face
mirrored with a star caught in thy hair - ever, until the
North-wind brings the night of his flame. Yea, and after that,
sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until
the end of Arda.'

'And what shall I remember?' said she. 'And when I go to
what halls shall I come? To a darkness in which even the
memory of the sharp flame shall be quenched? Even the memory
of rejection. That at least.'

How sad!
I’d appreciate if someone could tell if there is somewhere else said anything about this relationship.
Yet, what do you think? Who of these two loved truly and better?

Confusticated · Oct 16, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
How sad!
I’d appreciate if someone could tell if there is somewhere else said anything about this relationship.
Yet, what do you think? Who of these two loved truly and better?

ahhhh.... When I saw the first few words of your post I knew what was coming.
Is is clear that Andreth loved Aegnor very much. Based on what Finrod (very wise) says, I would say that his brother loved Andreth just as much as she loved him.
At first glance it may apear that Aegnor loved her more because he did what he thought was best for her (or so according to Finrod).
But I think this was probably only because Aegnor was wiser, or stronger than Andreth, and not that he had the better love. Andreth is one of the ugliest cases I have read about. Here we read about a few men who fall in love with beautiful female elves and yet when we get to see love between a male elf and female human: it just doesn't happen.
I was reading through The Silmarillion a couple days ago (shortly after reading Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth) and when I read of Aegnor's death...it really hit me in a way that it hadn't before, because this time I thought of Andreth.
I do not know how Aegnor delt with his love for this mortal, but it is clear to me that for Andreth this love was hell in her life. Finrod told her that his brother would never get married because of the love, so maybe it was just as hard on him as it was for her.
This love story (if you want to call it that) touches me in a way that the story of Beren and Luthien did not. Beren and Luthien had magic and wondeful things happend, Andreth and Aegnor's story seemsmore like a reality of our own world. also,I somehow see the love story of Beren and Luthien as being a mans story while Andreth and Aegnor seems to be a woman's story. It is so bitter, and so ugly...it is awful. She not only had sorrow about not getting to be with him but she seemed to loath herself for it..I think she blamed her mortality rather than his immortality, so she lay this on herself. She was bitter t'wards the powers above because this love could not be...she sought to blame something/someone for her pian...and I would bet almost anything that she carried this bitterness and pain to her death..maybe even beyond.
To me this is as ugly as the parting of Melian from Luthien and Elrond from Arwen.
Who loved truely and better?...I have no idea.
If Finrod's words are true and Aegnor never married, never while the world lasted, or he lasted....then I would say that they were even.
I base this opinion on my faith in Finrod's wisdom. We can not know what happend to Andreth after her death. Could be she went to the halls of Mandos and cried her eyes out singing at his feet as Luthien did, but this would have been to no avail, because it says in The Silmarillion that Luthien was the only one to ever move him to pity. It could be that she went on and gained wisdom and somehow became content, and her bitterness withered away?..Hmm.
Andreth's life (what I know of it) causes more pain for me as a reader than Any other thing in Tolkien's writing. Mind you I say pain and not sorrow or any other thing...it just hurts to think about it.

Eledhwen · May 9, 2009

Men have learned to pack a lot of life into their few short decades. Elves can put things off indefinitely if things aren't going well at any time, because they have, literally, all the time in the world. Aegnor put off marrying Andreth because they met in times of war. This would not put off a man, who has to live much more immediately. Thinking of 'real life' - look at the marriages in World War 2; people getting hitched BECAUSE they might die, not avoiding it for the same reason. Of course, Elf marriage does not end with the death of one party, so to marry at such times could leave a partner alone for an eternity if there is no return from Mandos. Aegnor was tied to his Elvish thinking, even when he loved a mortal woman who, in his reckoning, would not live for long after his death in battle in any case. He may have been worried about what would befall any offspring they might have, and how vulnerable that would leave Andreth. I can see where he was coming from.

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