FoolOfATook
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Walter
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Beleg,
I understand the difficulties you must have, because Tolkien's sources and influences as well as his interests were somewhat biased towards the northern Euopean and English (Anglo-saxon) history, mythology, literature and culture, none of which you are probably familiar with. But everyone with English as their first language and/or a (northern- and central-) European background should be familiar or at least interested in these subjects since they represent the historical, philological and cultural "roots" for us.
But also should everyone who is seriously considering to venture into Tolkien-scholarship (and eventually at some point and after certain necessary efforts may be considered a Tolkienologist, but this is IMHO not a title one can claim or gain by passing a nonsensical trivia-test) show some familiarity with those pieces of literary works that have been a major influence for Tolkien.
The single most revealing essay by Tolkien himself, about his sources and influences, but even more so about his judgement what is of essential or central importance for literature in the mythological area, is the lecture he gave 1936 to the British Academy titled: "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics". This essay is - though rather "dry" to read - IMHO worth to be "studied", not only read and understood, if one wants to understand what Tolkien had in mind for his own "mythology".
The single most revealing book about Tolkien's mythology, it's origins and roots is Tom Shippey's first Tolkien book The Road to Middle-earth, and even though his second book is more "refined", the first represents IMO the better starting point for this long and labourous journey into Tolkien's world of faeries and myths.
I have also tried to compile a list of Tolkien's literary and historical sources here.
----
Now for your ideas and questions:
The Hobbit is in my understanding not of central importance, it does not play a crucial role in his mythology either.
Also Tolkien sure is correct when he states (in Letters #25) that his book -The Hobbit - tale is not consciously based on any other book, rather the book - and even more so the LotR and the Silmarillion are based on dozens of other books, he had read or studied and his own tales have evolved from the "leaf-mould" of his memories (as he so aptly put it).
The Edda(s) are the oldest pieces of northern (European) mythological tradition, for reasons I will not try to explain here, he preferred those over the maybe even older existing Celtic myths. The Edda(s) represent the old Germanic (heathen) mythological traditions that have been destroyed by the Christianisation in Europe, but survived in Iceland. The Poetic - or Older (though it is ironically the younger one)- Edda is a set of poems that have been passed down by oral tradition and written sometime in the 13th century AD, the Prose - or Younger Edda - has been written ~1200 AD by Snorri Sturluson and contains - aside from a "carrier" storyline (IMO similar to the Eriol-story in the LT) prose versions of many of the tales of the Poetic Edda.
Scandinavia is a name for the northernmost part of Europe, originally Norway and Sweden, with the northern part of Denmark, but sometimes Finland, Iceland and the Faroe Islands are also counted in.
The names of most of Tolkien's Dwarves are taken from a part of the Poetic Edda, often called the "Dvergatal", I have quoted this part in one of my previous posts. Their meanings are not generally clear (not to me anyway), but here goes:
Thorin: The adjective 'þorinn' (pronounced "thorinn") means "brave". Also, the name "Þór" (Thor) is common in Iceland and refers to the god of thunder
Thrain is a fairly common name in Iceland (Þráinn) and means "stubborn".
Thror ('Þrór') is also one of Odin's (the oldest of the Aesir, the Germanic gods, often called the "All-father" in the Edda
) many names.
Bombur: ('Bömburr') is most likely derived from the noun 'bumba' which means 'belly' and thus 'Bömburr' means 'the one with the big belly'.
Some other names (Oin, Ori, Nori) probably describe small worm- or maggot-like creatures, because in the Eddas, the dwarfs originally were worms (maggots) in the flesh of Ymir, the giant from who's body the world was build by the gods.
A somewhat more complete description of origins and meanings of the Dwarven names will be available at the TolkienWiki soon.
Gamgee (gamdschee) also refers to cotton-wool (c.f. Letters #184 to Sam Gamgee)
I understand the difficulties you must have, because Tolkien's sources and influences as well as his interests were somewhat biased towards the northern Euopean and English (Anglo-saxon) history, mythology, literature and culture, none of which you are probably familiar with. But everyone with English as their first language and/or a (northern- and central-) European background should be familiar or at least interested in these subjects since they represent the historical, philological and cultural "roots" for us.
But also should everyone who is seriously considering to venture into Tolkien-scholarship (and eventually at some point and after certain necessary efforts may be considered a Tolkienologist, but this is IMHO not a title one can claim or gain by passing a nonsensical trivia-test) show some familiarity with those pieces of literary works that have been a major influence for Tolkien.
The single most revealing essay by Tolkien himself, about his sources and influences, but even more so about his judgement what is of essential or central importance for literature in the mythological area, is the lecture he gave 1936 to the British Academy titled: "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics". This essay is - though rather "dry" to read - IMHO worth to be "studied", not only read and understood, if one wants to understand what Tolkien had in mind for his own "mythology".
The single most revealing book about Tolkien's mythology, it's origins and roots is Tom Shippey's first Tolkien book The Road to Middle-earth, and even though his second book is more "refined", the first represents IMO the better starting point for this long and labourous journey into Tolkien's world of faeries and myths.
I have also tried to compile a list of Tolkien's literary and historical sources here.
----
Now for your ideas and questions:
The Hobbit is in my understanding not of central importance, it does not play a crucial role in his mythology either.
Also Tolkien sure is correct when he states (in Letters #25) that his book -The Hobbit - tale is not consciously based on any other book, rather the book - and even more so the LotR and the Silmarillion are based on dozens of other books, he had read or studied and his own tales have evolved from the "leaf-mould" of his memories (as he so aptly put it).
The Edda(s) are the oldest pieces of northern (European) mythological tradition, for reasons I will not try to explain here, he preferred those over the maybe even older existing Celtic myths. The Edda(s) represent the old Germanic (heathen) mythological traditions that have been destroyed by the Christianisation in Europe, but survived in Iceland. The Poetic - or Older (though it is ironically the younger one)- Edda is a set of poems that have been passed down by oral tradition and written sometime in the 13th century AD, the Prose - or Younger Edda - has been written ~1200 AD by Snorri Sturluson and contains - aside from a "carrier" storyline (IMO similar to the Eriol-story in the LT) prose versions of many of the tales of the Poetic Edda.
Scandinavia is a name for the northernmost part of Europe, originally Norway and Sweden, with the northern part of Denmark, but sometimes Finland, Iceland and the Faroe Islands are also counted in.
The names of most of Tolkien's Dwarves are taken from a part of the Poetic Edda, often called the "Dvergatal", I have quoted this part in one of my previous posts. Their meanings are not generally clear (not to me anyway), but here goes:
Thorin: The adjective 'þorinn' (pronounced "thorinn") means "brave". Also, the name "Þór" (Thor) is common in Iceland and refers to the god of thunder
Thrain is a fairly common name in Iceland (Þráinn) and means "stubborn".
Thror ('Þrór') is also one of Odin's (the oldest of the Aesir, the Germanic gods, often called the "All-father" in the Edda
) many names.Bombur: ('Bömburr') is most likely derived from the noun 'bumba' which means 'belly' and thus 'Bömburr' means 'the one with the big belly'.
Some other names (Oin, Ori, Nori) probably describe small worm- or maggot-like creatures, because in the Eddas, the dwarfs originally were worms (maggots) in the flesh of Ymir, the giant from who's body the world was build by the gods.
A somewhat more complete description of origins and meanings of the Dwarven names will be available at the TolkienWiki soon.
Gamgee (gamdschee) also refers to cotton-wool (c.f. Letters #184 to Sam Gamgee)
Walter
Flamekeeper
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I think you are - purposely? - missing the point here, Master Took. I do not despise any member of this Guild, or else I wouldn't have been contributing in your Guild as much as I did, in fact I think - as I have stated often enough - this guild to be the one with the greatest potential.
What I indeed do despise, is the testing and ranking system here, regardless of the fact how much work anyone has put into it. And I also despise the fact, that and how you - the guild-leaders - seem to cling to this system, for whatever the - personal? - motives may be.
Now why do I despise it? First, in my understanding, the mere title "Tolkienologist" is a highly ambitious one, and - frankly - I do not think a single member of your guild rightfully would deserve it, though there may be a handful of people seriously trying to approach it.
Second, by giving your members these silly titles you - the guild-leaders - are not only misleading them to think, one could become a "Tolkienologist", by answering such a set of trivia-questions (which seems - frankly - a rather juvenile approach), but these titles you hand out, are also a mockery of everyone seriously approaching some Tolkien-scholarship.
Third, young Master Took, although I have - as I would suppose everyone living in the central and northern European area as well as everyone with English as their first language has - read those tales of the Norse and Germanic gods and heroes, those folk-tales dealing largely with the remnants of this old Germanic mythology in my teenage years, and then all but forgot about them. And I have not again encountered such tales of dragons, giants and dwarfs until I read The Hobbit - my first Tolkien book - not even 2 years ago. My main field of interest was (and mostly still is) science and technology, and I am probably more at home in discussions about molecular dynamics, quantum fields or computer- and software technology than about philology and literature. So you would be safe to assume that every single book I have read, which can be considered "philological" or "humanistic" or "mythological" I have read within those 1 & 1/2 years since I began to explore Tolken's sub-creation.
And - yes - I have intended to set certain boundaries for the discussion within this thread, because it would seem necessary to me if we try to avoid getting from the hundreth to the thousandth and besides, rather than "discussing" every piece of information arbitrarily thrown in here, I might as well direct you to the page where Shippey has provided us with the necessary bits and pieces regarding this certain topic so that you could start some "research" on our own. I was thinking that - in order to try approaching the "bigger picture" Tolkien has provided us with - some "lateral drifting" might be helpful, but that a certain forwad impetus would also be necessary. But so far, I think, I have actually discussed everything that has been tossed in here at least I think I have answered the questions that have been brought up.
And - last not least - Master Took, don't you agree, that it would seem better to be so diligent in ones special walk as duly to read those myths that inspire Tolkien before attempting to discuss them?
Having said this, I also need to mention, that I just unsubscribed this thread, so don't expect me to see any replies here. And besides, I don't think that taking this at a personal level, like you did, Master Took, will prove helpful at all, but if you want an exchange at this level, then why didn't you take it private from the first?
Last edited:
Lhunithiliel
Fëanorean
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Gentlemen, let's stick to peaceful and friendly relations!
This is a forum where we have gathered to learn, research and share, and personal attacks can only spoil the creative atmosphere!
The topic is very interesting and I, just as well as other Tolkienologists, find it a useful one.
But let's stick to the subject and not let other matters like testing and ranking system within the Guild interfere.
There is a place for discussing this issue.
This is a forum where we have gathered to learn, research and share, and personal attacks can only spoil the creative atmosphere!
The topic is very interesting and I, just as well as other Tolkienologists, find it a useful one.
But let's stick to the subject and not let other matters like testing and ranking system within the Guild interfere.
There is a place for discussing this issue.
Lantarion
no house
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I'd just like to add that this thread has so far been outstandingly scholarly and incredibly interesting. Had I seen it before I would have noted Kullervo's strong resemblance to Túrin (thank you for that Walter ); but sadly I have not yet read the Kalevala in full. I am soon going to start it, and although it is several hundred pages long and its language is the most sordid and tongue-twisting form of Finnish you will find, I aim to finish it within two months. After that I can return here with some new 'lore' and therefore some new subjects of discussion.
PS: Another seemingly endless well of links and webs are the languages that Tolkien worked on for most of his life. I know for a fact (and it is obvious in many words) that Finnish was a huge part of the process, especially of Quenya. Some words (like vëne = boat) are either not changed at all or so slightly that it is still obvious that they are of Finnish origin. (if you're wondering, the FInnish word for 'boat' is vene)
So let's get discussing! I think the key, which sems quite obivous, is not to lecture or to 'teach' but to convey and to discuss the simliarities and affecting factors in and on Tolkien's worlds.
); but sadly I have not yet read the Kalevala in full. I am soon going to start it, and although it is several hundred pages long and its language is the most sordid and tongue-twisting form of Finnish you will find, I aim to finish it within two months. After that I can return here with some new 'lore' and therefore some new subjects of discussion.PS: Another seemingly endless well of links and webs are the languages that Tolkien worked on for most of his life. I know for a fact (and it is obvious in many words) that Finnish was a huge part of the process, especially of Quenya. Some words (like vëne = boat) are either not changed at all or so slightly that it is still obvious that they are of Finnish origin. (if you're wondering, the FInnish word for 'boat' is vene
)So let's get discussing! I think the key, which sems quite obivous, is not to lecture or to 'teach' but to convey and to discuss the simliarities and affecting factors in and on Tolkien's worlds.
Ancalagon
Quality, not Quantity!
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While much of Tolkiens sources and influences are derived from either Icelandic and Norse tradition, much credence also should be given to the Pagan ascestry of early Britain, particularly the Celtic influences which of course find their own origins in Central Europe, mainly Germany.
What is apparent to me is how Tolkien has blended the two early cultural styles into his own Mythology. Both represent pre-Christian European traditions and both are distinctly apparent for their own reasons.
The tales themselves that permeate Tolkiens writings are distinctly Norse in their granduer and style. Epics in themselves they recount fallen heroes, the wrath of the Gods, Dragons and Dwarves and the direct relevance of Elves which are referred to in the Edda. This is what makes Tolkiens writings so vast and powerful in terms of their emotional resonance. The tragic tales that epitomise much of Norse Mythology can be readily seen in Tolkiens own work. Even the Rings of Power; Draupnir, Andvarinaut and Thor's 'Oath Ring' to name but a few are symbols Tolkien found influence from.
Yet, the link to Men for me is more relevant to Celtic tradition. The rituals, burial mounds and standing stones are reminiscent of Old Numenorean ventures into Middle-Earth, the ruins of Ancient Days, the Barrows, long destroyed fortesses. The relams of Arnor and Gondor in their earliest days strike a chord in their similarity.
There is much to be gleaned from the understanding of these traditions in the process of trying to understand Tolkien. I know that Walter feels a strong sense of loyalty to the Masters work, in that before seeking to discuss him with any conviction, one must first try to understand how Tolkien found influence to pen the epic saga and mythology he created. By the same token Walter, one must first learn this for himself/herself the more one delves into the work. The symbolism of ranks and titles is not exclusive to this Guild or forum alone, nor is it intended to be anything other than fun for the members and something for them to strive to reach.
Neither you, nor I or anyone else who frequents these Guilds actually believes themselves to be a true scholar of Tolkien, but all the fun is in trying to get there.
I think we will know we have reached that point when we write a volume of books that Christopher Tolkien feels are worth being included in his own library
What is apparent to me is how Tolkien has blended the two early cultural styles into his own Mythology. Both represent pre-Christian European traditions and both are distinctly apparent for their own reasons.
The tales themselves that permeate Tolkiens writings are distinctly Norse in their granduer and style. Epics in themselves they recount fallen heroes, the wrath of the Gods, Dragons and Dwarves and the direct relevance of Elves which are referred to in the Edda. This is what makes Tolkiens writings so vast and powerful in terms of their emotional resonance. The tragic tales that epitomise much of Norse Mythology can be readily seen in Tolkiens own work. Even the Rings of Power; Draupnir, Andvarinaut and Thor's 'Oath Ring' to name but a few are symbols Tolkien found influence from.
Yet, the link to Men for me is more relevant to Celtic tradition. The rituals, burial mounds and standing stones are reminiscent of Old Numenorean ventures into Middle-Earth, the ruins of Ancient Days, the Barrows, long destroyed fortesses. The relams of Arnor and Gondor in their earliest days strike a chord in their similarity.
There is much to be gleaned from the understanding of these traditions in the process of trying to understand Tolkien. I know that Walter feels a strong sense of loyalty to the Masters work, in that before seeking to discuss him with any conviction, one must first try to understand how Tolkien found influence to pen the epic saga and mythology he created. By the same token Walter, one must first learn this for himself/herself the more one delves into the work. The symbolism of ranks and titles is not exclusive to this Guild or forum alone, nor is it intended to be anything other than fun for the members and something for them to strive to reach.
Neither you, nor I or anyone else who frequents these Guilds actually believes themselves to be a true scholar of Tolkien, but all the fun is in trying to get there.
I think we will know we have reached that point when we write a volume of books that Christopher Tolkien feels are worth being included in his own library
Lhunithiliel
Fëanorean
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I guess I'd be right to post the following here in this thread.
But if I was wrong in doing so, I ask for apologies.
I amd very much interested in the mythological background of the tale of Numenor and here are a couple of questions that I would be happy to read some opinions on:
1/ The name Avallone - how does it relate to "Avallon" in the tales of King Arthur? Why did Tolkien used the same name?
Is there any place where such information could be read?
2/ The tradition of the Exiled Numenoreans to build the tombs for the dead greater than the houses for the living - can we find a relation in this to the civilizations of the Maia and Incas and the Egyptions?
3/ The part about the "flying ships" of the Exiled Numenoreans - what legends/myths do you think it was based upon?
Again, I am sorry if I have interrupted your discussion.
But if I was wrong in doing so, I ask for apologies.
I amd very much interested in the mythological background of the tale of Numenor and here are a couple of questions that I would be happy to read some opinions on:
1/ The name Avallone - how does it relate to "Avallon" in the tales of King Arthur? Why did Tolkien used the same name?
Is there any place where such information could be read?
2/ The tradition of the Exiled Numenoreans to build the tombs for the dead greater than the houses for the living - can we find a relation in this to the civilizations of the Maia and Incas and the Egyptions?
3/ The part about the "flying ships" of the Exiled Numenoreans - what legends/myths do you think it was based upon?
Again, I am sorry if I have interrupted your discussion.
Perhaps the UFO's? Although I don't think that the concept of UFO's was there during the late 30's and first few years of forties.
Perhaps It is a way Tolkien thought Atlantis civilization to be? Afterall much hubhub has been raised in favor of the point that the lost Island of Atlantis (If there was any) was much more technologically advanced then the other parts of the world in the same era.
This notion comes basically from the wish of becoming immortal, which has been present in almost every civilization to some extent.
I personally think that the Mummification and building of Pyramids has more to do with preserving the ancestoral cultural, tradition and heritage rather then the wish of becoming immortal...as was the case with Numenoreans...
Lantarion
no house
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Well, in a sense they mummified the dead (actually only royalty) with their personal possessions and things to ready them for the afterlife, which in a sense means "immortality" because their soul continues its life.
And I don't think Númenóreans believed in afterlife, but I'm not sure.
About the flying ships, I think I read somewhere that the Tolkien had the 'leftover' Númenóreans build flying craft after the end of their sojourn on the Land of Gift.. Ah it was on a thread posted by Idril:
Here's the link. It's an increidbly interesting read.
FoolOfATook
I'm Still Alive...
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Lhunithiliel
Fëanorean
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Thank you Master Took for the interesting quote!
Ah! Those letters! So much information lying there one can dig out from...
I remeber reading somewhere (...or was it in one of those brilliant BBC-documentaries... ) that the pyramids the Egyptions built in such a way that the main chamber of the dead pharaon and especially his sarcophagus was positioned in a very particular place - a perfect straight line (imaginably) could be drawn connecting the sarcophagus and the center of the Orion-constellation where the Egyptions believed their Ra lived.
The "Straight road" ????
What about the name "Avallone" ?
Ah! Those letters! So much information lying there one can dig out from...
I remeber reading somewhere (...or was it in one of those brilliant BBC-documentaries...
) that the pyramids the Egyptions built in such a way that the main chamber of the dead pharaon and especially his sarcophagus was positioned in a very particular place - a perfect straight line (imaginably) could be drawn connecting the sarcophagus and the center of the Orion-constellation where the Egyptions believed their Ra lived. The "Straight road" ????
What about the name "Avallone" ?
Lantarion
no house
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Perhaps one of Tolkien's Letters tell us whether that was purposeful.
But there really is almost no simliarities betwen Avallónë and Avalon.
First of all, Avalon is a (mythical) island where Arthur supposedly spent his last years, whereas Avallónë is a city, or a port, which kept contact with the Númenóreans of Andúnië.
Anyway, it might have been an accident! Avallónë means "near Valinor".. I wonder what 'Avalon' meant. Is it Middle English or something?
But there really is almost no simliarities betwen Avallónë and Avalon.
First of all, Avalon is a (mythical) island where Arthur supposedly spent his last years, whereas Avallónë is a city, or a port, which kept contact with the Númenóreans of Andúnië.
Anyway, it might have been an accident! Avallónë means "near Valinor".. I wonder what 'Avalon' meant. Is it Middle English or something?
Melian
Maia Queen
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- 349
I don't mean to be pushy, but recently I've posted a lecture here( The Hall Of Lectures, the last few posts). Its topic was; "Finding Parallelism Between Ancient Mythology and Tolkien".
I thought someone of you historians and scholars might be interested, because all I could say-I;ve said it already there. There is a comparison between Tolkien and Egyptian, Greeko-Roman, Mesopotamian,Scandinavian and Celtic mythology. It was a tough job, it's really hard to read it but I'd put much effort in it so please come over. And if by any bizarre twist of fate you like it, you can also partcipate in the discussions at the Hall of Serminars.
I thought someone of you historians and scholars might be interested, because all I could say-I;ve said it already there. There is a comparison between Tolkien and Egyptian, Greeko-Roman, Mesopotamian,Scandinavian and Celtic mythology. It was a tough job, it's really hard to read it but I'd put much effort in it so please come over.
And if by any bizarre twist of fate you like it, you can also partcipate in the discussions at the Hall of Serminars.
Lhunithiliel
Fëanorean
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An excellent brain-storming topic for loremasters!
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