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Tolkien's strange dream

Ricardo

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Joined
Feb 21, 2025
Messages
351
I had never heard about this before, but I was watching a youtube channel, one of the few that is very accurate and reliable.

they said that in one of his letter, Tolkien said that himself, and his son Michael had recurrent dreams about being in Atlantis.

In a later letter, Tolkien said that after writing the akallabeth, the dream stopped for both of them.

If true, I find this very bizarre.

I always had the idea (although never believed it, just a thought in my mind), that the Legendarium was too complex, and too perfect to be the work of a single mind and always thought if there would be other sources.

Yet this seems to suggests that Tolkien was somehow compelled to write about the fall of Numenor (similar to Atlantis) by a dream, I find this mind-blowing.

Was the YouTuber wrong? was Tolkien playing games? or was it true? and in that case what does it mean?
 
I had never heard about this before, but I was watching a youtube channel, one of the few that is very accurate and reliable.

they said that in one of his letter, Tolkien said that himself, and his son Michael had recurrent dreams about being in Atlantis.

In a later letter, Tolkien said that after writing the akallabeth, the dream stopped for both of them.

If true, I find this very bizarre.

I always had the idea (although never believed it, just a thought in my mind), that the Legendarium was too complex, and too perfect to be the work of a single mind and always thought if there would be other sources.

Yet this seems to suggests that Tolkien was somehow compelled to write about the fall of Numenor (similar to Atlantis) by a dream, I find this mind-blowing.

Was the YouTuber wrong? was Tolkien playing games? or was it true? and in that case what does it mean?
Read Letters 257 and 276....he mentions his "Atlantean" dreams.
He may mention the dreams in other letters, but I haven't looked those up [yet].
 
I see The Tolkien Gateway has an article titled "Atlantis-haunting":

Atlantis-haunting or Atlantic complex were ways by which J.R.R. Tolkien referred to his recurring dreams of a towering, inescapable wave rising up out of the sea or sweeping over the landscape.

"This legend or myth or dim memory of some ancient history has always troubled me. In sleep I had the dreadful dream of the ineluctable Wave, either coming out of the quiet sea, or coming in towering over the green inlands. It still occurs occasionally, though now exorcized by writing about it. It always ends by surrender, and I awake gasping out of deep water. I used to draw it or write bad poems about it."
J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 257
 
Yes, I know it's in the letters but what do you make out of it?

Were Tolkien and his son getting a recurring same dream until he wrote on a subject inspired by the subject of their dreams?

Sounds kind of supernatural, like he was being instructed to write about it.

what are the chances of 2 people having the same dream over and over?
 
Tolkien certainly believed in the supernatural; that is the existence of a realm not part of the physical created world.
But I seriously I doubt that he believed he was being instructed to write about what he dreamt.
He might (and perhaps did) get some ideas from his dreams, especially from "repeat" dreams, kind of like "artistic suggestions" from his subconscious.
Read up on what is going on in our brain when you dream. Pretty fascinating.
And FWIW I have dreamt repeatedly of two houses and each house's surrounding yard; probably 2 dozen dreams about each house.
At most I've often wondered what my conscious (and subconscious ) is trying to sort out, because neither house even remotely resembles the two houses in which I lived from birth until I turned 19.
And like Tolkien I believe in a supernatural realm, ( in fact it's rather similar to the one he believes in, since I am also Catholic), but I have never thought my dreams were ever instructions or directives.

what are the chances of 2 people having the same dream over and over?
I have not yet read other of his Letters about this (if there are more).
So can you cite the letter wherein he says Michael and he had the same dream.
And note that two people can certainly dream about the same thing even repeatedly , but that is decidedly not the same thing as having the same dream.
 
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Letter 163 I think

"I say this about the ‘heart’, for I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. Possibly inherited, though my parents died too young for me to know such things about them, and too young to transfer such things by words. Inherited from me (I suppose) by one only of my children, though I did not know that about my son until recently, and he did not know it about me. I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.) I don’t think I have had it since I wrote the ‘Downfall of Númenor’ as the last of the legends of the First and Second Age."
 
OK... I read Letter 163.
I do believe in telepathy... I've know Identical twins that have rudimentary form of it.
It is quite possible there was some exchange of sentiments about Atlantis between Tolkien père and Tolkien fils despite no conversation or discussion ever occurring about it.
But again, dreaming about the same thing is not the same as having an identical dream; Tolkien said they dreamt about the same thing .

Ask the members here : Who has dreamt of Middle Earth and scenes from LOTR or the Sil?
Then get even more detailed and ask who has dreamt of <specific scene> from <specific work> .
You'll probably find that a fair number of people will respond that they have.
But there is nothing supernatural about it.
 
I think that dreams can very much be supernatural. In fact, just a few hours ago, my friend sent me a dream she had, which accurately describes something I imagined before I even met her.
I first read DUNE when I was 12. I had never seen any of the DUNE movies, had never seen any pictures from them, had never even seen a drawing of something from DUNE. So all I had to go off was my own imagination and the author's description when trying to figure out what certaing things in DUNE looked like.
I remember very clearly that I imagined stillsuits as being these white, puffy jumpsuits that covered your entire body. The way I imagined it, they were puffy in the way that a winter coat is puffy: filled with soft stuff inside, but smooth on the outside. I imagined that they were filled with gel.
I also imagined the head covering as being some kind of bag or helmet that the Fremen wore, to keep moisture from escaping. I remember dressing my dolls up in white clothes and putting bags over their heads when I was playing DUNE with them (hey, I didn't have any action figures, so I had to make do with what I had).
As anybody who has watched the movie will know, my imagination of the stillsuit was basically the polar opposite of how it was depicted in the movie. Instead of a thick, smooth white bodysuit, the Fremen wear greyish-brownish jumpsuits that are covered in tubing, ventilation and other stuff, not at all smooth.
Today, my friend (who I will refer to as Finduilas) emailed me about a dream she had while returning to our country via plane.
I only met Finduilas when I was 13 (she was then 11). I hardly ever discussed DUNE with her (she's not allowed to read or watch it yet), and I certainly never mentioned to her that I originally imagined the stillsuits as being white. The only person I ever mentioned that to was my father, and I only told him that I thought the stillsuits were white, not that they were smooth and puffy as well.
Anyway, Finduilas told me that she
"had this weird dream about an entire desert planet, and people in white began coming out of the sand, then fighting each other."
(The rest of the dream was mostly nonsense about monkey cybertrucks, so I won't put in the rest of it)
Right away, I realized that she was dreaming about Fremen in DUNE. But the "people in white" part didn't make any sense. Fremen stillsuits were grey, weren't they?
Then I remembered the way that I imagined stillsuits when I was 12.
I told her that her dream reminded me of something, and asked her what the white that the people where wearing looked like, in a way that didn't hint towards how I imagined the stillsuits:
Could you describe more about your Desert dream to me? What kind of white clothes were the people wearing? Was it like the traditional clothes that Arab men wear, or white shorts and tank-tops, or jumpsuits? Was the cloth thin, or thick? Did it look flexible? Did they have head coverings?
She quickly replied
Whitey fightey guys wore what looked like thick construction suits, if that makes sense.
"Thick construction suits" basically describes the way that I used to imagine the stillsuits.
So Finduilas dreamt of something that I imagined before I even knew her.
She also sent me some other dreams that had elements of DUNE, such as "dragonfly helicopters", "a boy and girl standing on a rock together" (Paul and Chani), and "people fighting with knives, but no guns or swords". She also mentioned some weird stuff, like snail transformers (no idea what that's about).
She also said that when she landed in our country, she felt a sudden urge to "go play in the Desert". I felt almost the exact same thing as I landed a week ago (we were both on summer vacation).
So yeah, sorry if this is a bit long.
Edit: I just asked Finduilas if the fighter guys were wearing anything on their heads, and she said they were wearing these "helmet-hood thingies". Which also exactly matches the way I imagined stillsuits when I was 12.
 
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But as relates to Tolkien, did he consider his dreams , or that he and his son dreamt about the same thing, a supernatural, as in mystically significant, event.
And my answer is : No, he did not.
Anyone else can assign whatever supernatural veneer to it that they choose.
 
This is soo weird. . . just last night I recited
the complete Fall of Númenor in my sleep.

Sleep talking cat for you Imgurians - GIF - Imgur


And then I dreamed a dream.

Download Nature Water Sea Ocean Wave Ocean Waves Gif
 
There are many things about Tolkien's work he felt he 'received' rather than 'created.' In fact, he felt himself much like a tool being used.
Note his comments about Faramir. Something on the order of "I did not know of him, I did not want him, but there he is...and I think I like him."

He called himself a 'sub-creator.'
I don't think we should press his dreams (and the issue that Michael also dreamed) beyond what they themselves say about them.

Our dreams are impacted by many things. As steeped in all manner of fantasy, folklore, science fiction, and myth as Tolkien was. I don't recall if Michael was nearly as involved and close to him as Christopher was - who knows what triggered both of them dreaming "about" Atlantis.

And no doubt, in mythology and elsewhere there are other accounts of "sunken cities" to be bumped into.

Too, Tolkien was a believer in and reader of the Bible, and the Bible has much to say about the use of 'dreams' in leading things along. Who knows how that knowledge impacted Tolkien's dreaming, or his accounting of both he and MT dreaming 'about the same things.' (I'd say more on this theme, but this is not the place.)
 
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I see The Tolkien Gateway has an article titled "Atlantis-haunting":

Atlantis-haunting or Atlantic complex were ways by which J.R.R. Tolkien referred to his recurring dreams of a towering, inescapable wave rising up out of the sea or sweeping over the landscape.

"This legend or myth or dim memory of some ancient history has always troubled me. In sleep I had the dreadful dream of the ineluctable Wave, either coming out of the quiet sea, or coming in towering over the green inlands. It still occurs occasionally, though now exorcized by writing about it. It always ends by surrender, and I awake gasping out of deep water. I used to draw it or write bad poems about it."
J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 257

Kind of like that dream of Miriel's in Rings of Power. ;)
 
There are many things about Tolkien's work he felt he 'received' rather than 'created.' In fact, he felt himself much like a tool being used.
Note his comments about Faramir. Something on the order of "I did not know of him, I did not want him, but there he is...and I think I like him."

He called himself a 'sub-creator.'
I don't think we should press his dreams (and the issue that Christopher also dreamed) beyond what they themselves say about them.

Our dreams are impacted by many things. As steeped in all manner of fantasy, folklore, science fiction, and myth as Tolkien was, and as close to his work as Christopher was, who knows what triggered both of them dreaming "about" Atlantis.

And no doubt, in mythology and elsewhere there are other accounts of "sunken cities" to be bumped into.

Too, Tolkien was a believer in and reader of the Bible, and the Bible has much to say about the use of 'dreams' in leading things along. Who knows how that knowledge impacted Tolkien's dreaming, or his accounting of both he and CT dreaming 'about the same things.' (I'd say more on this theme, but this is not the place.)
Interesting facts.

Just a small correction, it was Michael, not Christopher who had the dream.
 
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I think that dreams can very much be supernatural. In fact, just a few hours ago, my friend sent me a dream she had, which accurately describes something I imagined before I even met her.
I first read DUNE when I was 12. I had never seen any of the DUNE movies, had never seen any pictures from them, had never even seen a drawing of something from DUNE. So all I had to go off was my own imagination and the author's description when trying to figure out what certaing things in DUNE looked like.
I remember very clearly that I imagined stillsuits as being these white, puffy jumpsuits that covered your entire body. The way I imagined it, they were puffy in the way that a winter coat is puffy: filled with soft stuff inside, but smooth on the outside. I imagined that they were filled with gel.
I also imagined the head covering as being some kind of bag or helmet that the Fremen wore, to keep moisture from escaping. I remember dressing my dolls up in white clothes and putting bags over their heads when I was playing DUNE with them (hey, I didn't have any action figures, so I had to make do with what I had).
As anybody who has watched the movie will know, my imagination of the stillsuit was basically the polar opposite of how it was depicted in the movie. Instead of a thick, smooth white bodysuit, the Fremen wear greyish-brownish jumpsuits that are covered in tubing, ventilation and other stuff, not at all smooth.
Today, my friend (who I will refer to as Finduilas) emailed me about a dream she had while returning to our country via plane.
I only met Finduilas when I was 13 (she was then 11). I hardly ever discussed DUNE with her (she's not allowed to read or watch it yet), and I certainly never mentioned to her that I originally imagined the stillsuits as being white. The only person I ever mentioned that to was my father, and I only told him that I thought the stillsuits were white, not that they were smooth and puffy as well.
Anyway, Finduilas told me that she

(The rest of the dream was mostly nonsense about monkey cybertrucks, so I won't put in the rest of it)
Right away, I realized that she was dreaming about Fremen in DUNE. But the "people in white" part didn't make any sense. Fremen stillsuits were grey, weren't they?
Then I remembered the way that I imagined stillsuits when I was 12.
I told her that her dream reminded me of something, and asked her what the white that the people where wearing looked like, in a way that didn't hint towards how I imagined the stillsuits:

She quickly replied

"Thick construction suits" basically describes the way that I used to imagine the stillsuits.
So Finduilas dreamt of something that I imagined before I even knew her.
She also sent me some other dreams that had elements of DUNE, such as "dragonfly helicopters", "a boy and girl standing on a rock together" (Paul and Chani), and "people fighting with knives, but no guns or swords". She also mentioned some weird stuff, like snail transformers (no idea what that's about).
She also said that when she landed in our country, she felt a sudden urge to "go play in the Desert". I felt almost the exact same thing as I landed a week ago (we were both on summer vacation).
So yeah, sorry if this is a bit long.
Edit: I just asked Finduilas if the fighter guys were wearing anything on their heads, and she said they were wearing these "helmet-hood thingies". Which also exactly matches the way I imagined stillsuits when I was 12.
Okay, I will be honest...
After a few days of my friend having the same dream over and over again, and sending me more details, I realised that the "guys in white construction suits" were actually Sardukar, not Fremen the way I imagined them when I was 12 :/
But I mean, she's still dreaming about DUNE without ever having seen/read it, so that's pretty cool.
Unfortunately, my dreams are sadly devoid of Fremen fighting Sardukar :(.
All I dream about is my alarm ringing.
At least my dream comes true!
 
Okay, I will be honest...
After a few days of my friend having the same dream over and over again, and sending me more details, I realised that the "guys in white construction suits" were actually Sardukar, not Fremen the way I imagined them when I was 12 :/
But I mean, she's still dreaming about DUNE without ever having seen/read it, so that's pretty cool.
Unfortunately, my dreams are sadly devoid of Fremen fighting Sardukar :(.
All I dream about is my alarm ringing.
At least my dream comes true!
When I read Dune (in 1978 while I was still in the Navy) I dreamt about it a lot.
45 years later I not only remember nothing about those dreams (except I know I had them), I also remember very little about the story. 🙄
I suppose that's a good thing, as I can now enjoy the story as if it's a new experience for me. 😄
(Whoever said getting old has little to recommend it?.... 😉)
 
When I read Dune (in 1978
I, too, read Dune decades ago. (My navy preceded yours, while the reading succeeded it.)
Frankly, 'twas Tolkien (in the navy) bringing me to probe others' works thereafter, 'seeking similar.' (I was never a fantasy or scifi appreciator before Tolkien.)

I recall some, but not much, of the books - and would be joining you in the "new adventure" of a "re-read." (Does that qualify as an oxymoron? Perhaps not, as the "new adventure" and the "re-read" are separate events - yet they are in fact united. It sits on the cusp. OH NO... I hope this doesn't create an argument. )

Anyway, I recall I really enjoyed the first few books of the series as they unfolded. But as it continued on, somehow the interest waned. (I believe an "Encyclopedia of Dune" or some such thing was ultimately also done.)

I wonder if I've done the whole a disservice.

I've smushed most of the books back into my library under the delusion I may find time at some point to re-read them all.
Perhaps it's worth the doing - and even expanding on my prior dip into the soup.
 
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I, too, read Dune decades ago. (My navy preceded yours, while the reading succeeded it.)
Frankly, 'twas Tolkien (in the navy) bringing me to probe others' works thereafter, 'seeking similar.' (I was never a fantasy or scifi appreciator before Tolkien.)

I recall some, but not much, of the books - and would be joining you in the "new adventure" of a "re-read." (Does that qualify as an oxymoron? Perhaps not, as the "new adventure" and the "re-read" are separate events - yet they are in fact united. It sits on the cusp. OH NO... I hope this doesn't create an argument. )

Anyway, I recall I really enjoyed the first few books of the series as they unfolded. But as it continued on, somehow the interest waned. (I believe an "Encyclopedia of Dune" or some such thing was ultimately also done.)

I wonder if I've done the whole a disservice.

I've smushed most of teh books back into my library under the delusion I may find time at some point to re-read them all.
Perhaps it's worth the doing - and even expanding on my prior dip into the soup.
You DO appreciate that your somewhat convoluted statement is an invitation for @Klaatu to weigh in; not [necessarily] because of what you are saying, but merely because it's convoluted. 😄

I intend to reread the first one,; i.e., the original first one Dune (not any prequels, if there are any).
Back in '78 I also read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, but if I have little memory of the first one, I have no memory of those next ones.
Nor do I have any desire to [re]read them. But the first one, yes; and I'm looking forward to that.
 

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