Tom Bombadil and Goldberry

[Firawyn]

Heeelllooo, what did I miss? I go away for a few days and now there are lots of people here!

Hummm, for the sake of improbability we will ever nail down what Tom is...I'm going with Yay...he's a wereworm.

 

[Sauron]

It is difficult for me to see Tom Bombadil as a disguise of Aule (let alone, Eru Illuvatar Himself!) due to this passage from 'The Council of Elrond' in the Fellowship of the Ring:

' "Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?" asked Erestor. "It seems that he has a power even over the Ring."

"No, I should not put it so," said Gandalf. "Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, not break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them."

"But within those bounds nothing seems to dismay him," said Erestor. "Would he not take the Ring and keep it there, for ever harmless?"

"No," said Gandalf, "not willingly. He might do so, if all the free folk of the world begged him, but he would not understand the need. And if he were given the Ring he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind. He would be a most unsafe guardian; and that alone is answer enough."

"But in any case," said Glorfindel, "to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come."

"I know little of Iarwain [another name for Tom Bombadil] save the name," said Galdor; "but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills." '

I still think Bombadil has to be a Maia of some sort, as with Goldberry. A Vala would not be described as being too weak to resist the power of Sauron who, as we all know, is a Maia.

 

[Prince of Cats]

It is difficult for me to see Tom Bombadil as a disguise of Aule (let alone, Eru Illuvatar Himself!) due to this passage from 'The Council of Elrond' in the Fellowship of the Ring:

I still think Bombadil has to be a Maia of some sort, as with Goldberry. A Vala would not be described as being too weak to resist the power of Sauron who, as we all know, is a Maia.

Never it is established that Tom is "too weak" as you say. Glorfindel even says that just as he was first, he would be last. To me, that sounds like in Glorfindel's mind that Tom is the most powerful creature in Middle Earth. Never do they say 'resist the power' like he would be swayed or overtaken by Sauron himself, but rather he suggest Tom would fall once every other thing in the world had.

And also, Glorfindel thinks the ring to mount doom is the best way. He probably doesn't want to hear other options

 

[redline2200]

To me this is one of the most interesting topics/discussions in the whole Tolkien universe. Reading about how Bombadil puts on the ring and is completely unaffected and how he sees Frodo when he puts on the ring and enters the "other" world (call it what you may) is one of my favorite parts in all of Tolkien's writings.

Based off what Tolkien himself has said (I wish I had the quote but I do not), Tom Bombadil CANNOT be any already known character in the Tolkien universe. Tolkien specifically shot down the theory that Bombadil was Eru and he went out of his way to say that every fictional universe has to have characters that are not fully understood by anyone, and that is exactly what Bombadil is. If Tolkien had intended for Bombadil to be anyone in particular (such as Aule for example) he would have said so; it is not Tolkien's style to say Bombadil could not be understood and then secretly leave clues for readers to "figure out" who he is (be he Aule or anyone else).
This is not to say I found your theory uninteresting, Illuin, I very much enjoyed the post .

Based on the "laws" of Tolkien's universe, it seems that Bombadil was just one of the many unnamed Maia. This could explain his resistance to the ring, as he was the only Maia to have come in contact with it. (Keep in mind that although the Istari were indeed Maia, they were Maia in altered forms. They were limited in their powers by the 'mortalesque' bodies they were bound to, and they were never revealed in their true power and majesty due to the limitations assigned to them. Perhaps Olorin would have been unaffected by the ring even when Gandalf saw it as a temptation) Tolkien says in the Silmarillion that there were many Maiar (unlike the limited and small number of Valar); it is not at all hard to believe that one of them settled down in ME, even if Tolkien never explicitly mentioned it.
This would also explain how Bombadil could see Frodo when he put on the ring. Gandalf describes in the chapter "Many Meetings" how those who have lived in Aman live both in the invisible world and the visible world at the same time. If Bombadil were just an "earthly spirit" or an incarnation of nature, it seems to me that he would not have this quality. We can reasonably conclude that he had spent some time in Valinor at one time. Knowing he is not an elf or mortal, who else has ever lived in Aman? The Ainur of course, and due to my above reasoning of why he can't be a known character (thus ruling out all Valar), he must be a Maia!

As far as the issue of why Bombadil was not counted among the wise and why the wise never took council with him (it would be logical they would try to use a Maia's help if there was one in ME), he just simply did not care! It's as Prince of Cats already said, he ignored the wars of mortals and elves (much like the ents) because there are always wars and there always will be, but Ea had existed always. I loosely liken him to Radagast, that although by no means was evil or bad, he did not get involved with the worries of the wise because he was enamored by the forest and nature and peaceful things. Can you blame the guy? He certainly led a much more care-free lifestyle.

 

[HLGStrider]

I always felt that Goldberry was simply a nymph, a personification of water, and that would lead me to believe that Tom was a spirit of the land, much like Pan or a Dryad (though dryads are trees and I would say the earth is more akin to Tom).

Goldberry is the "fair river daughter." Ulmo does have some nymph like followers, doesn't he?

The Yavanna/Aule theory is interesting but a couple of parts of it don't seem right:

1. Aule was serious minded and independent, grim enough to want to smash his creations when he realized he'd miss-made them. Maybe time has changed him, but this doesn't sound like Tom.

2. Tom has more affinity for Hobbits than Dwarves. I know this isn't definitive, but if he created the Dwarves, you'd think Aule would choose to be near/like them.

3. As mentioned, as powerful as Tom is, Sauron would eventually win. He simply isn't powerful enough.

4. Tom has a great like for trees. Aule was nonchalant about dwarves with axes, a position that caused a marital tiff, if you'll remember.

5. Yavanna had an affinity for Ents. Again, you don't see them anywhere near her.


Finally, my backing for my theory, which of course will always be a theory because Tom is an intentional enigma, isn't he? Part of the mystery, myth, and magic.



1. Elrond likens the resistance of Tom to the resistance of the earth itself.
2. Tom is neutral to the appeals of men; he cannot comprehend them or take them seriously because he is not part of men . . . or elves . . . or hobbits . . . or maia. All of the above have been involved in this fight from the get go, taking sides one way or another. Tom isn't part of them.
3. The ring has no power over him, yet he also has no power over it. This is vague, but I would say that it adds to his neutrality and I would argue that the land is neutral.
4. His power sways natural elements only from what I've seen. There is nothing I would call "spiritual" about Tom. On this note, it is interesting that his guests still experience apprehension on a subconscious level (hence bad dreams). He has no control of their souls. He cannot erase their fears. He can only provide comfort when they choose to focus on him.
The exception to this is the Barrow Wights, but he uses the power of sun rather than what I would consider a spiritual exorcism, so I think my point is still valid.

All vague, but I like it.

 

[Illuin]

from HLGStrider
Tom has a great like for trees. Aule was nonchalant about dwarves with axes, a position that caused a marital tiff, if you'll remember

Yes, but they were still happily married . I didn’t much care for Ballet when I first met Diane. Now, after 16 years; I most certainly do (cough) . Yavanna had thousands of years; so Aule better have a "great liking" for trees .

 

[Sidhe]

Heeelllooo, what did I miss? I go away for a few days and now there are lots of people here!

Hummm, for the sake of improbability we will ever nail down what Tom is...I'm going with Yay...he's a wereworm.

A wonderful Tolkien geek fight. I'm in heaven.

To be honest I suspect Tolkien never made his mind up himself what they were, and was probably delighted that people spent so much time puzzling over such a minor plot development. I guess we will never know for sure, unless Christopher finds a stack of old papers with the evidence on them in an old cupboard somewhere.

I think it's still possible to maia and be neutral as well: after all the druids were meant to be neutral and in sync with nature, the most neutral of forces. That thrives as much on law as it dies without it, and as much on chaos as it dies with out it. He wouldn't of been neutral to Sauron though, Sauron and his master were always pro messing with nature to create abominations, which of course means he could of had a motivation to maintain the worlds natural order, and his form is still questionable. The only thing I think you can be absolutely sure of is that he is not mortal and he is not an elf, the rest is open to debate.

 

[Prince of Cats]

Hey Sidhe,

This is my favorite thread on the board and I check here every few hours hoping someone's added to it, so THANKS!

Out of curiosity, what 'druids' are you referring to?

I believe too that Tolkien would enjoy reading this thread

I'd love to talk to an anthropologist or historian of European folk lore to see their thoughts on Bombadil and connections to mythology that Tolkien was familiar with.

I saw this guy on Food Network on the Bobby Flay showdown that reminded me of my view of Bombadil ... you would/will know who if/when you saw/see the episode

 

[Firawyn]

...unless Christopher finds a stack of old papers with the evidence on them in an old cupboard somewhere.

Maybe he has! Anyone have his e-mail address?

 

[Sidhe]

Hey Sidhe,

This is my favorite thread on the board and I check here every few hours hoping someone's added to it, so THANKS!

Out of curiosity, what 'druids' are you referring to?

I believe too that Tolkien would enjoy reading this thread

I'd love to talk to an anthropologist or historian of European folk lore to see their thoughts on Bombadil and connections to mythology that Tolkien was familiar with.

I saw this guy on Food Network on the Bobby Flay showdown that reminded me of my view of Bombadil ... you would/will know who if/when you saw/see the episode

The Celtic druid mythology, that gives birth to my name The Sidhe, their Gods, something I think along with other mythologies Tolkien may have drew on. They believe that nature is the governing force of their mythology, and all things that are not natural are wrong and must be thought against and fought against. Obviously in the times they lived in this was quite consistent, after all if crops failed or a plague struck they could reason nature had been taken for granted or that men were at fault for abandoning their religion. Suffice to say that gave them both an advisory role to kings, and a unique perspective. To them a kingdom a country and a soldier or a serf all had to keep in balance with their mythos. Although a king was important if he did not look to his people, nature and the needs of the Gods and the land then he was a failure, in some cases they believed even a king could be replaced if he failed to meet the lands needs, and to them the land was all it was, a natural entity more important than any one man. The punishments meted by them were perhaps more harsh than the laws the king mooted. It's kinda backward to modern thinking, but it has a rustic simplicity I admire. In a culture that at times merely subsisted and barely survived they unified a people to build monuments that defy wonder, like Stone Henge and the wood henges and other stones and cairns. They gave people a common purpose, that would see them survive hard times, in this case religion was good for the survival of their culture, if not the reason their culture survived.


They were the seekers for balance and thus order between what was lawful and what was natural and therefore less ordered. They were the ultimate arbiters, they were neutral in a way that is only consistent with nature not with man's nurture.

Maybe he has! Anyone have his e-mail address?

Lol we can but dream.

 

[HLGStrider]

That is an interesting history lesson and all, but I really don't see a corollary in Middle Earth. If you are saying Tom is a druid, or druid like, it doesn't make sense because he rules over nature rather than other men and only interferes with men when their problems are directly in front of him, within his realm, so to speak. The Maia serve a more definite spiritual being than "nature," (Eru, the Vala), so they aren't druids either. There simply aren't any druids recorded in Middle Earth.

That said, there is a respect for nature and balance within the Elven cultures of Middle Earth, and a little bit in Hobbit culture. Not necessarily in Human or Dwarven though. Dwarves you could argue are set aside from nature because their creator made them apart from the music. Men possibly because they are a young race and are not bound to the circle of the world. If you live in a place for 50 to a couple hundred years you will have a lot less attachment to it than if you are stuck there until someone knocks you off or you decide to take a boat trip. Elves are actually a part of the whole. Men and Dwarves are very possibly set aside.

The building of stone and the bending of nature to your will is not necessarily condemned in Tolkien. All men, even those considered good, did this and there statues, palaces, and cities are considered beautiful. It is only the breaking of nature, machines that are messy and inelegant or have evil purpose, which is considered an evil in its own right.

Tolkien was probably aware of Druids being a lover or history and mythology and old ways, but I think they had very little influence on his work in general. I think his own personal love of nature (and preferences/experiences) played a much larger role than any such knowledge.

 

[Illuin]

from Sidhe
“The Celtic druid mythology, that gives birth to my name The Sidhe, their Gods, something I think along with other mythologies Tolkien may have drew on. They believe that nature is the governing force of their mythology”

Interesting. What about “Green Man”; the legendary pagan deity who roams the woodlands of the British Isles and Europe? I have often speculated Tom was a depiction of Green Man; though I still believe Tom and Goldberry being Aule and Yavanna is a lot more fun .

 

[Sidhe]

That is an interesting history lesson and all, but I really don't see a corollary in Middle Earth. If you are saying Tom is a druid, or druid like, it doesn't make sense because he rules over nature rather than other men and only interferes with men when their problems are directly in front of him, within his realm, so to speak. The Maia serve a more definite spiritual being than "nature," (Eru, the Vala), so they aren't druids either. There simply aren't any druids recorded in Middle Earth.

That said, there is a respect for nature and balance within the Elven cultures of Middle Earth, and a little bit in Hobbit culture. Not necessarily in Human or Dwarven though. Dwarves you could argue are set aside from nature because their creator made them apart from the music. Men possibly because they are a young race and are not bound to the circle of the world. If you live in a place for 50 to a couple hundred years you will have a lot less attachment to it than if you are stuck there until someone knocks you off or you decide to take a boat trip. Elves are actually a part of the whole. Men and Dwarves are very possibly set aside.

The building of stone and the bending of nature to your will is not necessarily condemned in Tolkien. All men, even those considered good, did this and there statues, palaces, and cities are considered beautiful. It is only the breaking of nature, machines that are messy and inelegant or have evil purpose, which is considered an evil in its own right.

Tolkien was probably aware of Druids being a lover or history and mythology and old ways, but I think they had very little influence on his work in general. I think his own personal love of nature (and preferences/experiences) played a much larger role than any such knowledge.

I wasn't saying anything of the sort, all I said was that Tom like the druids could of been a force of nature or an agent of it, because Tolkien drew from all sorts of influences, I don't know where you got the idea that he was druid from, I just meant he could have been purely neutral in the same way nature was and that some religions were. The history lesson just came from someone asking me about it.

Interesting. What about “Green Man”; the legendary pagan deity who roams the woodlands of the British Isles and Europe? I have often speculated Tom was a depiction of Green Man; though I still believe Tom and Goldberry being Aule and Yavanna is a lot more fun .

Could be, just as it could be that he is an avatar, lets face how do we presume to know, exactly what lead him to Tom Bombadil and Goldberry?

 

[barnaveldt]

I don't think Tolkien was much of a fan of Celtic stuff like Druids. Celticness was quite political in his time and associated with Irish nationalism. JRR didn't really relate to politics much.

 

[Firawyn]

Tolkien may not have related to the topic, but I find it very hard to believe that he wasn't very aware of it. What people are aware of shapes who they are and what they do, not what they relate to.

 

[Prince of Cats]

I agree with Illuin that Tolkien probably got the seed planted (well that's more on Firwayn's part there) of mystical local deities like "green man" through readings of folk lore, old tales etc

 

[Sidhe]

I don't think Tolkien was much of a fan of Celtic stuff like Druids. Celticness was quite political in his time and associated with Irish nationalism. JRR didn't really relate to politics much.

I don't think he cared too much about politics, or political implications, despite everything he did being declared on the side of some political notion or another at some point. Besides since the Celts are sort of mainland Europe in origin and the majority of their peoples lived there, I'd have to say the Irish version is hardly the only version of the mythology, its also as intimately involved with the Welsh, English and Scottish as it is with the Irish.

I have to agree there may have been some influences there, just as there were undoubtedly influences from many mythologies. I'm pretty sure he didn't shy away from Saxon/Germanic mythology because he didn't want his book to reflect the politics of such peoples close to his time either.