🕷️Ungoliant: The First of the Free Agents

[Eonwe]

but she is part of ME, and therefore, it isn't pointless to try to fit her in? If you and others can simply say, "earth spirit", or "pimple from darkness" or "animated kingsford charcoal" isn't that even more pointless than trying to define her in what classes of beings on ME that are known?

Put it this way, Harad's alien theory has as much evidence to back it up as saying she is a spirit of darkness.

 

[Harad]

It may be nutty, but its mine.

And so is Ungoliant. She kicks Valar butt, scarfs down some great and important Things (Melkor feeds her with both hands--Picture that!--be careful, Melkor, you might lose more than a finger), and crawls off into the Sunset (oops no Sun), trailing clouds of Evil. Then for good measure she breeds with her offspring to provide such sources of entertainment as Shelob and Loblolly-attercop.

She shirley deserves her own category.

But Ungoliant vs. Tom Bombadil? Would Tom Bombadil twirl Ungoliant around his finger and laugh?

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Harad
It may be nutty, but its mine.

And so is Ungoliant. She kicks Valar butt, scarfs down some great and important Things (Melkor feeds her with both hands--Picture that!--be careful, Melkor, you might lose more than a finger), and crawls off into the Sunset (oops no Sun), trailing clouds of Evil. Then for good measure she breeds with her offspring to provide such sources of entertainment as Shelob and Loblolly-attercop.

She shirley deserves her own category.

But Ungoliant vs. Tom Bombadil? Would Tom Bombadil twirl Ungoliant around his finger and laugh?

Bom Badil would kick butt. But you are right who knows what she is? Let her be one of her own.

 

[Harad]

Bom Badil would kick butt.

No. She was a bit out of his league. She was from outside of the Earth. He would have no power over her. She on the other hand might be able to cover the whole Earth in darkness.

 

[elenya]

If Ungoliant is in a ...race, I guess, of her own than what would you call it?

Spideracus Evilacus?
Bottomless-Pit-for-Eating-Things-and-Turning-Them-to-Darkness?
Ugmo?

 

[Harad]

I'd call her...

Bubble-vicious

 

[Eonwe]

thats Bubble's from the Powerpuff girls (giggle)

 

[elenya]

So Ungoliany=power puff girl.

I like it! Down with the power puffs!

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by elenya
So Ungoliany=power puff girl.

I like it! Down with the power puffs!

The power puffs??

 

[elenya]

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
The power puffs??

Every one knows the power puff girls! They have huge heads and tiny bodies...there's three of them...thoes annoying animated girls?? You have to know who they are! Everyone does!

 

[Harad]

I agree with Beleg. Hunh?

 

[baraka]

Ainur

I have in my "The Complete Guide to ME" the following definition of Ainur:

Angelic spirits, offspring of the thought of Iluvatar. Most of the Ainur dwell with Iluvatar, but some, the Valar and Maiar, have come to Ea to fulfill the Ainulindale. Others, including Ungoliant and the Balrogs, came to Ea to hinder the Ainulindale and conquer or destroy the Light; of these, some, notably Melkor and Sauron, have been cast out into the Void.

I don´t know if the author had specific references in the case of Ungoliant, but i thought it would be interesting to post.

 

[Harad]

That "Guide" sounds unreliable to me. Tolkien in Letter #144 says:

The giant spiders were themselves only the offspring of Ungoliante the primeval devourer of light, that in spider-form assisted the Dark Power, but ultimately quarrelled with him.

This supports the view of Ungoliant as an "other," not part of the normal orders.

 

[Bill the Pony]

Christopher Tolkien gives this interpretation in BOLT1

In the tale her origin is unknown, and though this
element may be said to have remained in The Silmarillion
('The Eldar know not whence she came', ibid.), by the de-
vice of 'Some have said...' a clear explanation is in fact
given: she was a being from 'before the world', perverted by
Melkor, who had been her lord, though she denied him. The
original idea of 'the primeval spirit Moru' (p. 167) is made
explicit in an entry in the early word-list of the Gnomish
language, where the name Muru is defined as 'a name of the
Primeval Night personified as Gwerlum or Gungliont'.*

*In the tale (see p. 172) the name Gungliont was originally written,
but was emended to Ungoliont.

She's not an ainur in those passages. But what is she? Personification of darkness? I agree with Eonwe that that sounds like 'an easy way out'. If that's the case, then can we make Tom Bombadil the embodiment of good/light?

btw. the reference to p. 167 is to:

Therefore he seeks until he finds a dark cavern in the hills,
and webs of darkness lie about so that the black air might be
felt heavy and choking about one's face and hands. Very deep
and winding were those ways having a subterranean outlet
on the sea as the ancient books say, and here on a time weve
the Moon and Sun imprisoned afterward-, o for here dwelt the
primeval spirit Moru whom even the Valar know not whence
or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many
names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the
confines of the Shadowy Seas, in that utter dark that came
between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the
Trees, but more like she has always been; and she it is who
loveth still to dwell in that black place taking the guise of an
unlovely spider, spinning a clinging gossamer of gloom that
catches in its mesh stars and moons and all bright things that
sail the airs. Indeed it was because of her labours that so little
of that overflowing light of the Two Trees flowed ever into
the world, for she sucked light greedily, and it fed her, but
she brought forth only that darkness that is a denial of all
light. Ungwe Lianti the great spider who enmeshes did the
Eldar call her, naming her also Wirilome or Gloomweaver,
whence still do the Noldoli speak of her as Ungoliont the
spider or as Gwerlum the Black.

Which confirms Harad's 'theory' that she was bred from darkness. Can you explain with Harad logic how you breed a spider from darkness?

 

[Harad]

Easier than easy. The "eightfold way" or the fundamental quark group, arises from the quantum vacuum==blackness.

Take two ponies. Count the legs.

 

[Bill the Pony]

Easier than easy. The "eightfold way" or the fundamental quark group, arises from the quantum vacuum==blackness.

Gell-Mann's figures are all nice and symmetrical, nothing to do with a spider. Why would only spider-forms arise from the quantum vacuum? If what you say is true, even the flame imperishable would be generated from blackness, and thus everything created from it, be evil. Nah.

hopes it's not too obvious he hasn't got a clue what he's talking about

 

[Harad]

Ponies should stick to stables, not quantum instabilities. Everything arises from the vacuum. Skittish? Don't fear the sweeper.

 

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Harad
Everything arises from the vacuum.

originally posted by Harad
The darkness is a vacuum and Ungoliant spontaneously erupts. This is why she is so good at creating darkness her own self

If everything is bred from vacuum, then you say everybody should be good at creating darkness on his/her own. Why is only Ungoliant so good at it?

 

[Harad]

then you say everybody should be good at creating darkness

Confucius said "Pony trotting with horses can not win race," but I did not say the above.

A particle pair can arise from a vacuum fluctuation, its true. But it can be a proton-anti-proton pair or an electron-anti-electron pair. They have VERY different properties.

In the case of the Ungoliant-anti-Ungoliant pair, Ungoliant had the mastery of darkness. Other things arising from the vacuum have their spatial properties.

You might wonder about Anti-Ungoliant. I believe that He had mastery over light, and inhabited another realm.

 

[Bill the Pony]

This should not be worth discussing, since it was a joke in the first place. I'm sure someone will jump in and bring this thread back on topic. Until then, can you clear up something that seems to be a language problem?

but I did not say the above.

-----
The darkness is a vacuum and Ungoliant spontaneously erupts. This is why she is so good at creating darkness her own self
-----
Must be a language problem. If the fact that she spontaneously erupted from vacuum is a reason for her being good at creating darkness, then being good at creating darkness must be a property resulting from the spontaneous eruption. And then everything that spontaneously erupts must have that property.
If spontaneously erupting from darkness gives random properties, then this can not be an explanation for her being good at creating darkness.

Or did you mean something like: Ungoliant spontaneously erupted out of darkness and was made of anti-matter, which is why she is so good at creating darkness. All other beings on earth are made from matter, which makes them not good at creating darkness.
However, that's something you did not say.