Uruks vs. Uruk-hai

[aragil]

If im_lost would like to become im_more_lost, then all you need do is turn to http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2146&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
Here you will find (among other interesting tidbits) why Treebeard is not to be trusted, why 'Uruk-hai resistant to sunlight' are in no way related to 'half-orcs resistant to sunlight', and finally how 'rebel Uruk-hai' unambiguously refers to Uruk-hai of Mordor, when such creatures are never mentioned in any writing by Tolkien!

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by aragil

I'm not sure what you are saying here (or why you are pursuing this tangent instead of addressing my other, more relevant posts), but here's (I hope) the answer you are looking for.

Because this is relevant.

The two Orcs that Sam sees shot are Cirith Ungol Orcs, Lagduf and Musgash as they are later identified. They are shot by archers of Gorbag's who got to the gates first. Gorbag's troops are not trying to escape, they are trying to make sure none of Shagrat's boys escape to raise the alarm. Unfortunately for the pair of archers at the gate, someone was able to knife them. Perhaps Radbug, in a last heroic act. Who knows, ask Tolkien. Lagduf and Musgash (not to be confused with Snaga and Snaga) are clearly shot from the gate, which is where Snaga says the boys of Gorbag went. The archer-boys of Gorbag are equally clearly knifed, so none of Gorbag's boys got out. Pointless for this thread, because even if Gorbag's boys did get out it would have nothing to do with Uruks or Uruk-hai. It's Shagrat's lot that would spread the alarm, and it is a Shagrat-like Orc with the tracker that complains about 'rebel Uruk-hai'.

"I've told you twice that Gorbag's swine got to the gate first and none of ours [Shagrat's] got out. Lagduf and Muzgash ran through, but they were shot... And they were the last."

Snaga's implication is clear. 'None of ours got out'. Not 'none got out'. The archers were left behind to cover the escape of the rest 'Gorbag's swine', which got to the gate first and fled through. These are the 'rebel Uruk-hai'.

If we want to discuss tangents let's make them their own thread, and not try to side-step the issue here.

This is a mis-characterization.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: Tar Elenion

Originally posted by aragil
Tar Elenion:
Greenwood and I are arguing that this passage is not very clear. We think it is ambiguous. What are you, arguing?
1)That it is not ambiguous, and that without a doubt the Uruk-hai refer to the Uruk-hai of Mordor, which are mentioned nowhere else in the narrative. Or...
2)That it is ambiguous, but the most likely Orcs to be in Minas Morgul were the Orcs of Gorbag.

Number one, that it is not ambiguous.

If 1: Let's assume there are Uruk-hai in both Isengard and Mordor. This then explains why Tolkien has Ugluk and the troops at Helm's Deep say 'Uruk-hai of Isengard'. Stating where the Uruk-hai are from removes the ambiguity. By not stating where the Orcs are from this passage becomes ambiguous. Now let us assume that the Uruk-hai come only from Isengard. It is now no longer necessary to state where the Uruk-hai are from, so the passage is now no longer ambiguous. Which do you want: A completely unambiguous passage, in which case there are no Uruk-hai in Mordor; or an ambiguous passage, where it is unclear whether the Uruk-hai are from Isengard or Mordor (if the second possibility exists)?

There are Uruk-hai in Mordor.

If 2: The Uruk-hai need not refer to the most likely troops. If Hobbits were the most likely things in Mordor, then the Higher-Ups were not picking the most likely troops by guessing a dwarf-man and a great Elf. If a great Elf and dwarf-man were the most likely thing in Mordor, then the higher ups were wrong, and need not be correct about the 'Uruk-hai'.

The 'Higher Up' was not simply guessing. Shagrat had sent reports. A Nazgul came to Cirith Ungol and could tell that Gorbag's troops and Shagrat's had slaughtered each other.

<snip>
Also, the soldier Orc and tracker were not the results of a report by Shagrat. He did not report to Barad-dur until March 17th, the same day that Sam and Frodo come across the pair of Orcs. Unless Sauron was dispatching Orcs via a working teleporter system, these Orcs were not responding to a report of Shagrat's, who at any rate could have ID'd Sam and Frodo better than 'a dwarf-man and a great Elf'.

Shagrat had sent reports to Barad-dur before hand. He states he has his orders and intends on foolowing them in the 'Choices of...', the Nazgul showed up in responce to these.

Further more, if the Higher-Ups were supposed to be so accurate in picking the rebel Uruk-hai, why did they blow it on Frodo and Sam? Clearly, dwarf-man (wrong), great Elf (wrong), and Uruk-hai of Isengard (wrong) is a better match than dwarf-man (wrong), great Elf (wrong), and Uruk-hai of Minas-Morgul (right). Why are we allowing them to be wrong for dwarf-man and great Elf, and then constraining them to be right with the Orcs?

They did not blow it.

Elf-warrior:
As pointed out previously, the Orcs assumed it was an Elf-warrior that stuck Shelob, and cut her webs. Frodo was noted as looking 'elvish', by these Orcs, and was wearing an elf-cloak.

Dwarf-man:
"Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but of very short stature." (PoME, Dwarves and Men).
"The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race...". (Letter 131).
"I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees..." (Letter 213).
Hobbit, a 'sort of small dwarf-man'. Which is probably how Shagrat described Frodo in his report: 'Hey Boss, we captured us a some sort of small dwarf-man, kind of elvish looking but undersized, where a shiney mail coat, it looks like some Elf-warrior is here too. Shelob's webs have been cut and Her Ladyship got stuck, with an elf-sword. Anyways Boss, you need to get somebody down here. Gorbag and them Morgul boys is getting all grabby wanting to have sport with the little fellow, and take his gear, they seem specially interested in the pretty shirt'.
Your loyal Shagrat, Captain of ....

Or: Small dwarf-man captured. [Full description here]. Elf-warrior on the loose. Shelob stabbed, webs cut. Gorbag and his troops present, and want to spoil captive. Captive secure for now. Need orders. Send reply fast.

 

[aragil]

As long as we're pursuing tangents...

In the spirit of debate, I'm going to respond to this one:
Why are Gorbag's boys running out of Cirith Ungol? If they are running out, why are they going into Mordor, instead of out towards the wider lands. Surely going into Mordor would be the surest chance of getting caught. Are Gorbag's boys really that stupid? For that matter, if some did escape (I don't think any did), why didn't Sam see them? Why would 'the rest' of Gorbag's boys bolt with just 2-3 of Shagrat's boys left, rather than finishing the job and then hiding the evidence?
Again I ask the question, what exactly are we debating here? I have never said that rebel Uruk-hai does not refer to Gorbag's orcs. Of course it does, as they were the one's who slaughtered the garrison of the tower. The problem is that the term 'rebel Uruk-hai' is erroneously used to refer to Gorbag's boys, just as 'dwarf-men' erroneously refers to Frodo, and 'great Elf' erroneously refers to Sam.
The report is clearly in error, and suffers by the fact that Shagrat himself has no input on it. Look very closely at your appendix and tell me when Shagrat delivers the goods to Barad-dur. It is on March 17th. Now tell me when Sam overhears the conversation of the Orcs. It is either on March 16th or March 17th (the escape from C. Ungol occurs on the 15th, I believe), either way there is no possibility that they are sent out as a result of Shagrat giving a report. The Nazgul arrived after every Orc in the tower was either gone or dead. There was no Orc there to say 'Gorbag's boys attacked us. On a related note, a great Elf wandered in past the Watchers and wandered out again with the dwarf-man we were holding prisoner.' Remember, after the fighting started none of Shagrat's boys escaped (see your own quote, above). If any Orc had been around to say such things, wouldn't the Higher Ups have sent separate parties out to search for Gorbag's lot (a minor annoyance) and the great Elf and dwarf-men (a serious security issue)? No, the Higher Ups were confused as to what they were looking for, with each possibility being equally unlikely. The confusion of the Higher Ups explains why there were only two Orcs out looking for Sam and Frodo, rather than every Orc ever spawned which would have been the case had the Higher Ups had any clue what was actually going on.
For that matter, why are we even still considering Uruk-hai in Mordor. I have posted above that Uruks and Uruk-hai are described very differently. Shagrat (as well as Grishnakh and his boys) are Uruks- they have crooked legs and long arms; Uruk-hai are large, thick legged, swart-faced, bearing man-size weapons and are tolerant of the sun. Tolkien has provided these differences in descriptions so that we wouldn't confuse 'Uruks of Mordor' with their hybridized off-shoots in Isengard- the Uruk-hai. Are we now arguing that there are two types of Uruk-hai, the long-armed apes of Lugburz who are only referred to in the narrative as 'uruks', and the large Orcs from Isengard?
Where is there even any mention of Uruk-hai being troops of Mordor? This single passage does not state that the rebel Uruk-hai are residents of Mordor. Before this passage can even be applied to Uruk-hai of Mordor, you first have to assume that such creatures exist. Where is there any mention of Uruk-hai serving Mordor. We've been over this repeatedly- there is no mention of Uruk-hai serving Mordor. Why should we all of the sudden invent Uruk-hai of Mordor for this one singular passage?
Turning to the oft-quoted passage from the Appendix:
'Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'.'
Nowhere in this passage does it say that the Orcs of Isengard were called Uruks. What it says is that the word uruk was applied to the soldier-orcs of Isengard, probably referring to the fact that the term 'Uruk-hai' contains the word uruk. It is necessary for Tolkien to say this because the word 'uruk' means 'orc' in Black Speech, but is not used to refer to all orcs. The passage goes on to say that the Uruk-hai refer to lesser kinds of orc as snaga, meaning slave. It does not say that the Uruk-hai of Isengard and Mordor collectively refer to lesser breeds as slave, so still we have no mention of Mordor Uruk-hai.

 

[aragil]

Re: Re: Tar Elenion

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion

There are Uruk-hai in Mordor

Well, this is to the point. How do you know that there are Uruk-hai in Mordor? I thought this is what we were debating, because as far as I know there is no reference to Uruk-hai specifically being from Mordor. Perhaps you'd be so kind to show us the passage stating that there were Uruk-hai in Mordor, after which you can tell us why you've been hiding said passage for so long.

ps. Letters written 14 years before the publication of the Lord of the Rings can hardly be expected to refer to words with the same connotation as these words had at the time of publication, as Tolkien freely admits that Middle-Earth was a continuously changing concept for him.

 

[Bill the Pony]

And to add even more to the confusion, it seems that there is no consensus on whether orcs were bred from elves or men either. See for example here

 

[Greenwood]

Quote by Tar-Elenion

The archers were left behind to cover the escape of the rest 'Gorbag's swine', which got to the gate first and fled through. ....

Shagrat had sent reports to Barad-dur before hand. He states he has his orders and intends on foolowing them in the 'Choices of...', the Nazgul showed up in responce to these. ....

Which is probably how Shagrat described Frodo in his report: 'Hey Boss, we captured us a some sort of small dwarf-man, kind of elvish looking but undersized, where a shiney mail coat, it looks like some Elf-warrior is here too. Shelob's webs have been cut and Her Ladyship got stuck, with an elf-sword. Anyways Boss, you need to get somebody down here. Gorbag and them Morgul boys is getting all grabby wanting to have sport with the little fellow, and take his gear, they seem specially interested in the pretty shirt'.

There is no evidence that Shagrat got any message off other than what he took himself when he ran from Sam. In 'The Choices of Master Samwise' Shagrat says: "I have my orders. ..... Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugburz at once, and to Lugburz only. ...." Clearly any report is to include the list of items taken from the prisoner during the strip search. It is during this strip search that the mithril coat is found and the fighting breaks out between Gorbag and Shagrat and their respective troops. It makes no sense for Gorbag to wait until after Shagrat sends word to Lugburz to make a grab for the mithril coat. He would try to convince Shagrat not to report the existence of the mithril coat. There is also a witness to the fact that no orcs got away from the fort during the fighting. Sam is outside the fortress of Cirith Ungol and hears the fighting among the orcs. The only two orcs Sam sees leave the gate are shot down by arrows. When he enters the gates he sees the orc archers lying dead with knifes in the backs (as Aragil has already pointed out). To say that the archers were left to cover the escape of Gorbag's lads makes no sense. Why would they leave when the fighting was still going on and when Shagrat was still alive and in possession of the mithril coat that precipitated the fighting? It makes no sense for Gorbag's troops to have left and Sam saw only two orcs leave, both of whom are immediately killed. Snaga reports to Shagrat that none of their people got out.

So why does the Nazgul appear just as Sam and Frodo leave the fortress? It is not in response to any report of Shagrat's. In 'The Choices of Master Samwise' Gorbag tells Shagrat that the report was that the Nazgul were uneasy and that is why he and his troop were ordered to search the stairs. After Shagrat's escape and Snaga's death Sam searches the tower of Cirith Ungol for the orc disguises that he and Frodo put on. When Sam returns to Frodo with the disguises he tells him: "I think this place is being watched. I can't explain it, but well: it feels to me as if one of those foul flying Riders was about, up in the blackness where he can't be seen." When they left the fortress Sam had to call upon the power of the vial of Galadriel to get them past the Silent Watchers at the gate. When they did that the wall above the gate crumbled, a bell rang in the tower and a "high and dreadful wail" went up from the watchers. "Far up above in the darkness it was answered. Out of the black sky there came dropping like a bolt a winged shape, rending the clouds with a ghastly shriek." The Nazgul was on a sort of air patrol over the border of Mordor and dropped from the sky in response to the alarm from the watchers at the gate. The Nazgul was not there in response to any message of Shagrat's.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: As long as we're pursuing tangents...

Originally posted by aragil
In the spirit of debate, I'm going to respond to this one:
Why are Gorbag's boys running out of Cirith Ungol? If they are running out, why are they going into Mordor, instead of out towards the wider lands. Surely going into Mordor would be the surest chance of getting caught. Are Gorbag's boys really that stupid? For that matter, if some did escape (I don't think any did), why didn't Sam see them? Why would 'the rest' of Gorbag's boys bolt with just 2-3 of Shagrat's boys left, rather than finishing the job and then hiding the evidence?

Were they were going into Mordor? Perhaps they thought they would be safer there ('the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him') and would be more confortable on 'home ground', Gorbag seemed to have some suspicion that the War might not be going so well, or perhaps they wanted to escape out to the east. Perhaps those that are implied to have escaped did not go into Mordor. The two Orcs that were hunting need not have been the only ones. If some did escape (and I think Snaga's statement implies this) perhaps they did so before Sam got there. Why would the two archers remain at the Gate instead of fleeing if they had no reason to remain? Why would Gorbag's boys bolt? Are they stupid enough to stick around with Shagrat safely locked in the highest chamber, with the small dwarf-man prisoner, and wait for a Nazgul to show up? Kind of hard to hide that kind of evidence. And are the Nazgul stupid enough to buy the hidden evidence or could any of Gorbag's boys kept it from them under Questioning? And if none escaped (which is possible though I think Snaga's statement implies some thing different) how does the Nazgul know that, considering that the prisoner is gone as well? May be the great Elf-warrior rescued him, maybe the rebel Uruk-hai seized him and left.

Again I ask the question, what exactly are we debating here? I have never said that rebel Uruk-hai does not refer to Gorbag's orcs. Of course it does, as they were the one's who slaughtered the garrison of the tower. The problem is that the term 'rebel Uruk-hai' is erroneously used to refer to Gorbag's boys, just as 'dwarf-men' erroneously refers to Frodo, and 'great Elf' erroneously refers to Sam.

Is the Nazgul that stupid, that it could not recognize that Gorbag's boys and Shagrat's had fought each other, presumably over the disposition of the small dwarf-man it had come to pick up?

The report is clearly in error, and suffers by the fact that Shagrat himself has no input on it. Look very closely at your appendix and tell me when Shagrat delivers the goods to Barad-dur. It is on March 17th. Now tell me when Sam overhears the conversation of the Orcs. It is either on March 16th or March 17th (the escape from C. Ungol occurs on the 15th, I believe), either way there is no possibility that they are sent out as a result of Shagrat giving a report. The Nazgul arrived after every Orc in the tower was either gone or dead. There was no Orc there to say 'Gorbag's boys attacked us. On a related note, a great Elf wandered in past the Watchers and wandered out again with the dwarf-man we were holding prisoner.' Remember, after the fighting started none of Shagrat's boys escaped (see your own quote, above). If any Orc had been around to say such things, wouldn't the Higher Ups have sent separate parties out to search for Gorbag's lot (a minor annoyance) and the great Elf and dwarf-men (a serious security issue)? No, the Higher Ups were confused as to what they were looking for, with each possibility being equally unlikely. The confusion of the Higher Ups explains why there were only two Orcs out looking for Sam and Frodo, rather than every Orc ever spawned which would have been the case had the Higher Ups had any clue what was actually going on.

I am well aware of the timeline for Shagrat leaving Cirith Ungol and arriving in Barad-dur. The report I am talking about is the one that caused the Nazgul to be sent to (or had received while he was doing his 'observing' of) Cirith Ungol (the one that Shagrat says he is going to send and that Gorbag does not want him to). Is it ever suggested that only two Orcs were out looking for them? Most of Mordor had already been mobilized and sent to the front (or was on the way there). If there had been any conception that Frodo had the Ring and was going to destroy it, you are right, every Orc would have been sent after them (and a good number of other things. But Sauron could not fathom that any would destroy it, and IIRC was under some sort of assumption that Aragorn had it.

For that matter, why are we even still considering Uruk-hai in Mordor. I have posted above that Uruks and Uruk-hai are described very differently. Shagrat (as well as Grishnakh and his boys) are Uruks- they have crooked legs and long arms; Uruk-hai are large, thick legged, swart-faced, bearing man-size weapons and are tolerant of the sun. Tolkien has provided these differences in descriptions so that we wouldn't confuse 'Uruks of Mordor' with their hybridized off-shoots in Isengard- the Uruk-hai. Are we now arguing that there are two types of Uruk-hai, the long-armed apes of Lugburz who are only referred to in the narrative as 'uruks', and the large Orcs from Isengard?
Where is there even any mention of Uruk-hai being troops of Mordor? This single passage does not state that the rebel Uruk-hai are residents of Mordor. Before this passage can even be applied to Uruk-hai of Mordor, you first have to assume that such creatures exist. Where is there any mention of Uruk-hai serving Mordor. We've been over this repeatedly- there is no mention of Uruk-hai serving Mordor. Why should we all of the sudden invent Uruk-hai of Mordor for this one singular passage?

It has already been noted (even by me, early on this thread) that the great soldier-orcs have different physical characteristics. The Uruk-hai are the great soldier-orcs of both Sauron and Saruman. That Saruman bred his differently does not change this. The Uruk-hai of Sauron and Saruman can be differant from each other, and be great soldier-orcs, which appeared in the later Third Age, and are different than the 'snaga' or lesser Orcs, that had been around a lot longer. If there were not Uruk-hai in Mordor, why would the Nazgul send Orcs out looking for some that seem to have gone rebel and may have seized Frodo and taken off with him? Why would Tolkien use this term? It could be to confuse the reader, the reader knows that Saruman's are all dead.

Turning to the oft-quoted passage from the Appendix:
'Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'.'
Nowhere in this passage does it say that the Orcs of Isengard were called Uruks. What it says is that the word uruk was applied to the soldier-orcs of Isengard, probably referring to the fact that the term 'Uruk-hai' contains the word uruk. It is necessary for Tolkien to say this because the word 'uruk' means 'orc' in Black Speech, but is not used to refer to all orcs. The passage goes on to say that the Uruk-hai refer to lesser kinds of orc as snaga, meaning slave. It does not say that the Uruk-hai of Isengard and Mordor collectively refer to lesser breeds as slave, so still we have no mention of Mordor Uruk-hai.

_At this time_ (late in the Third Age) 'uruk' was used to refer to the great soldier-orcs of Sauron and Saruman. 'Uruks' is an anglicization. 'S' is the English plural. Are you going to argue that it is the Black Speech plural? One Uruk, two Uruks (anglicized). 'Uruk-hai' is a plural form. Is it ever used in the singular? Would you pluralize it as 'Uruk-hais'? Uruk-hai is refering back to the great soldier-orcs of Mordor and Isengard. This refers back to the word 'uruk'. I have already supplied a quote from Q&E which is speaking just about Sauron's Orcs no mention of Saruman's, and it says the lesser kinds were called snaga, see my intial 'Snaga' post for fuller reference.

 

[Greenwood]

Is the Nazgul that stupid, that it could not recognize that Gorbag's boys and Shagrat's had fought each other, preumably over the disposition of the small dwarf-man it had come to pick up?

The Nazgul was not there to pick up prisoners. It was flying 'air patrol' and responded to the alarm of the Silent Watchers when Sam and Frodo left the fortress.

'Uruks' is an anglicization. 'S' is the English plural. Are you goiung to argue that it is the Black Speech plural? One Uruk, two Uruks (anglicized). 'Uruk-hai' is a plural form. Is it ever used in the singular? Would you pluralize it as 'Uruk-hais'? Uruk-hai is refering back to the great soldier-orcs of Mordor and Isengard. This refers back to the word 'uruk'.

There is no evidence other than Foster's and Christopher Tolkien's unproven assertion that Uruks is an Anglicization of Uruk-hai (and there is no evidence that CT was not just following Foster). You have presented no evidence that Black Speech pluralizes by adding the suffix -hai. You also do not know that Uruk-hai cannot be used as both a plural and single noun (i.e. fish and other such words.) Gorbag does not use the word Uruk-hai when he refers to himself and his kind, he uses the word Uruks. Gandalf also uses the word Uruks when identifying large orcs from Mordor. In Appendix F says the word uruk is from the Black Speech. It does not say that Uruk-hai refers directly to the great soldier orcs of both Mordor and Isengard. You continually assume your argument is true and then use the results of that unproven assumption to try to prove the assumption. It is circular.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Greenwood


There is no evidence that Shagrat got any message off other than what he took himself when he ran from Sam.
[and]
The Nazgul was not there to pick up prisoners. It was flying 'air patrol' and responded to the alarm of the Silent Watchers when Sam and Frodo left the fortress.

"Sam looked up towards the orc-tower, and suddenly from its narrow windows lights stared out like small red eyes. He wondered if they were some signal."

Sam does not 'feel' the Nazgul presence until after 'rescuing' Frodo, even when he is wearing the Ring.
Shagrat sends message. Barad-dur sends Nazgul. Nazgul scouts area. Alarm goes off. Nazgul lands.

There is no evidence other than Foster's and Christopher Tolkien's unproven assertion that Uruks is an Anglicization of Uruk-hai (and there is no evidence that CT was not just following Foster).

What was said re the UT index by CT has already been posted.
Believe what you want. I choose not to believe CT is a plagiarist (this in no way is to be taken to imply that you are calling CT a plagiarist).

You have presented no evidence that Black Speech pluralizes by adding the suffix -hai. You also do not know that Uruk-hai cannot be used as both a plural and single noun (i.e. fish and other such words.)

I hacve not said BS pluralizes by adding the suffix '-hai'. What have said is that 'hai' is a plural form. As in 'people' not 'person'. Whike it is possible that Uruk-hai could be used as a singular or plural, I would first like to have a citation of it being used in the singular.

Gorbag does not use the word Uruk-hai when he refers to himself and his kind, he uses the word Uruks. Gandalf also uses the word Uruks when identifying large orcs from Mordor. In Appendix F says the word uruk is from the Black Speech. It does not say that Uruk-hai refers directly to the great soldier orcs of both Mordor and Isengard. You continually assume your argument is true and then use the results of that unproven assumption to try to prove the assumption. It is circular.

'Uruk-hai' is refering back to both, just as 'uruk' refers to both. If you don't choose to believe that, be my guest. It does not change what the passage says. You continually assume your position is correct, and dismiss anything that disagrees with it as irrelevant or ambiguous.

 

[aragil]

Dodging the issue...

For the last time Tar Elenion:
1) Was Sam a Hobbit which was mistaken as a great Elf?
2) Was Frodo a Hobbit which was mistaken as a dwarf-man?
3) Could Orcs of different breeds (i.e. Uruks vs. Uruk-hai) be mistaken for eachother (could an Orc really mistake Sam and Frodo for fellow Orcs)?

ps. Still waiting for you to produce a statement saying there were Uruk-hai based in Mordor. Before you do this there is no reason to wonder who 'rebel Uruk-hai' refers to- it refers to the Isengarders, as they are the only Uruk-hai mentioned in the text.

pps. Thank you Greenwood for explaining why the Nazgul was not responding to any message of Shagrat's.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
If there were not Uruk-hai in Mordor, why would the Nazgul send Orcs out looking for some that seem to have gone rebel and may have seized Frodo and taken off with him? Why would Tolkien use this term? It could be to confuse the reader, the reader knows that Saruman's are all dead.

As I imagine you know well, if there were no Uruk-hai based in Mordor, then rebel Uruk-hai could only refer to the Uruk-hai in Isengard. This would not confuse the reader, because there is only one type of Uruk-hai ever mentioned in the books, and they proudly announce that they belong to Isengard at every opportunity. The reader would realize that since the report mistakenly lists a non-existant great Elf and a non-existant dwarf-man, that Uruk-hai must be a case of the Higher Ups mistakenly referring to the now dead Uruk-hai of Isengard. The only thing that becomes confused when there is no Uruk-hai of Mordor is your argument that the terms Uruks & Uruk-hai are equivalent. Doubtless this is the reason that you insist the 'rebel Uruk-hai' passage unambiguously refers to Uruk-hai of Mordor. This is not quite the same level of confusion Tolkien would generate by intentionally having Treebeard make mis-leading statements about the abilities of Orcs in the sunlight, is it?

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Is the Nazgul that stupid, that it could not recognize that Gorbag's boys and Shagrat's had fought each other?

Remind me where the books say that the Nazgul could see that well, please. All I can recall is Strider saying:
"For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creature as spies, as we found at Bree. They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared."
Perhaps the fell beasts are articulate enough to tell the Nazgul that the Orcs are Uruk-hai, not snaga? Or perhaps they merely tell the Nazgul that some of the dead Orcs wear the livery of Morgul? What was it the fell beast at Pelannor said? Oh yes:
'Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Eowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw'
I'm sure that the fell beast was shrieking to say:
'"This woman with the sword looks dangerous. And watch your back, there is a Hobbit bearing the tokens of Rohan, looking to stab you in the back of the...." Wathunk! As Eowyn prevents the fell beast from disclosing Merry's presence to the otherwise blind Witch King with a quick swipe of her sword.'

Let's just say I'm glad my entire theory doesn't rest on the visual acuity of Ringwraiths, nor the abilities of the fell beasts to describe different breeds of Orcs!

 

[aragil]

Here we go again...

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
'Uruk-hai' is refering back to both, just as 'uruk' refers to both. If you don't choose to believe that, be my guest. It does not change what the passage says. You continually assume your position is correct, and dismiss anything that disagrees with it as irrelevant or ambiguous.

Tar-Elenion, by now you doubtlessly realize you are being argumentative. Greenwood and I don't assume our position is correct. We produce facts from the text which support our position. You seem to respond by 'trusting CT', rather than actually quoting from the texts under discussion. The soldier-Orcs of Mordor are repeatedly described as crook-legged with long arms. The soldier-Orcs of Isengard are described as large, swart, slant-eyed, thick legged, bearing man-like weapons, and most importantly being tolerant of the sun, of which the soldier-Orcs of Mordor are clearly described as being non-tolerant.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
It has already been noted (even by me, early on this thread) that the great soldier-orcs have different physical characteristics.

I'm glad you finally acknowledge the facts, but you seem to only pay lip service. In what way is sun-tolerance a 'physical characteristic'? If something like this doesn't distinguish breeds, then what does?

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
While it is possible that Uruk-hai could be used as a singular or plural, I would first like to have a citation of it being used in the singular.

Well, while it is possible that Uruk-hai refers to Orcs of Mordor and Isengard, we'd like to see a reference to the 'Uruk-hai of Mordor' before we assume it exists. How about if you supply us with an instance of 'Uruk-hai of Mordor' as we've continually asked? Then we'll supply you with an example of Uruk-hai used in the singular. Wait a moment, that would just debunk my theory of 'hai' meaning 'men'! Perhaps if you just provide us with the 'Uruk-hai of Mordor' quote, we can decide where to go from there.

 

[Greenwood]

Quote by Tar-elenion
"Sam looked up towards the orc-tower, and suddenly from its narrow windows lights stared out like small red eyes. He wondered if they were some signal."

Sam does not 'feel' the Nazgul presence until after 'rescuing' Frodo, even when he is wearing the Ring.
Shagrat sends message. Barad-dur sends Nazgul. Nazgul scouts area. Alarm goes off. Nazgul lands.

Sam wondering if the red light in the windows is a signal does not make it a signal. There are a number of problems with this. First there is the fact that everytime these windows are seen there is a red light in them. In The Two Towers, in The Stairs of Cirith Ungol, when Frodo and Sam first see the top of the tower of Cirith Ungol: "The horn upon the left was tall and slender; and in it burned a redlight, or else the red light in the land beyond was shining through a hole. He [Frodo] saw now: it was a black tower poised above the outer pass." Later, in the chapter Shelob's Lair: "Turning his [Sam's] eyes away from the shadow behind and the deep gloom beneath the cliff upon his left. he looked ahead, and he saw two things that increased his dismay. He saw the sword which Frodo still held unsheathed was glittering with blue flame; and he saw that though the sky behind was now dark, still the window in the tower was glowing red." In The Choices of Master Samwise: "Now the orc-tower was right above him [Sam], frowning black, and in it the red eye glowed." Thus every time the windows are described there is a red light in them. Is there constant signaling going on? Please do not bother to respond to this alone without responding at the same time to the following points.

Next problem with the red light being a signal to Barad-dur, the windows face the wrong way! In The Return of the King, in the chapter The Tower of Cirith Ungol: "He [Sam] ran forward to the crown of the climbing path, and over it. At once the road turned left and plunged steeply down." It is after Sam makes this turn that he first sees the Ephel Duath and in the distance the glow of Orodruin. Based on the map of Mordor and this left turn, the windows in question must be facing south. Who is there to signal that way? Minas Morgul is west, hidden by the mountains, and Barad-dur is north-northeast. The windows face the wrong way for signaling to either of them.

Finally, Barad-dur is simply too far away. Based on the scale on the map of Mordor in the back of my copy of The Return of the King, Barad-dur is approximately eighty miles from Cirith Ungol. No signal of red light is going to carry that far. Or is Sauron employing some Middle Earth version of a laser signaling system? (This would explain the red color. ) This also ignores the problem of the curvature of the earth over a distance of eighty miles; Barad-dur should be below the horizon. Or is Middle Earth flat? We also have the problem of speed and time. If the Nazgul was despatched from Barad-dur then its steed would have to have flown at speeds of approximately 100 mph or more to get there in time. If the Nazgul came from Minas Morgul (which solves the time and speed problem) why is he wasting his time "scouting" the area. Wouldn't he land as soon as he arrived over Cirith Ungol and take possession of the prisoner he has been sent to retrieve?

Quote by Tar-Elenion
While it is possible that Uruk-hai could be used as a singular or plural, I would first like to have a citation of it being used in the singular.

It is true that Tolkien never uses Uruk-hai in the singular. It is for this reason that we do not know if the singular is different from the plural. Before you waste all our time by typing a request for examples of Tolkien using the same word in LOTR as both a plural and singular noun I will refer to the word Nazgul. It is repeatedly used both ways throughout LOTR. Example: the Lord of the Nazgul speaking to Eowyn at the battle of Pelennor Fields -- "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey!" Thus we have Nazgul being used here as both a singular and plural noun.

 

[Grond]

I must interject here that neither side in this argument has given any thing definitive. I presented a scenario a few pages ago that would completely have undone the theory that the Uruk-hai are strictly Saruman's. It hinged on one (and only one) factor, Shagrat getting a message to "Higher ups", or, in fact, being the "hugher up" himself. If that happened, then clearly the "rebel Uruk-hai" spoken of would have been Gorbag's Uruk-hai and all arguments to the contrary are shot to hades.

Guess what??? There is no absolute evidence to that effect. We are left not knowing to whom the "higher ups" comment is referring to, thus we have no proof one way or another. We are left with the "lion's share" of references of Uruk-hai referring to Saruman's Greater-orcs. Guess what??? There is no absolute evidence to that effect either. There is no resolution to this argument because there are potential scenarios as I've outlined above. If the scenario in my first paragraph were true, the whole Saruman exclusivity argument is shot.

For my own personal resolution to this issue, I go back to the first time I ever read the Two Towers some 28 years ago. My impression then, when reading the Chapter Uruk-hai was that Saruman had developed a Super-orc that was far superior to anything in Sauron's aresenal. I also think that my first impressions are generally the correct ones.....but I could be wrong.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: Dodging the issue...

Originally posted by aragil
For the last time Tar Elenion:
1) Was Sam a Hobbit which was mistaken as a great Elf?
2) Was Frodo a Hobbit which was mistaken as a dwarf-man?
3) Could Orcs of different breeds (i.e. Uruks vs. Uruk-hai) be mistaken for eachother (could an Orc really mistake Sam and Frodo for fellow Orcs)?

For the last time aragil, the importance is in what the Orcs believed.
1)They did not see Sam and believed an Elf warrior was loose, based on the evidence available to them.
2)Yes, Frodo the Hobbit was a dwarf-man. I have already provided quotes backing this up. Hobbits are Men, but are much shorter. Hence 'dwarf-man'.
3)Anything is possible,(considering that it happened, certainly).

ps. Still waiting for you to produce a statement saying there were Uruk-hai based in Mordor. Before you do this there is no reason to wonder who 'rebel Uruk-hai' refers to- it refers to the Isengarders, as they are the only Uruk-hai mentioned in the text.

You are more than entitlted to your opinion.

The reader would realize that since the report mistakenly lists a non-existant great Elf and a non-existant dwarf-man, that Uruk-hai must be a case of the Higher Ups mistakenly referring to the now dead Uruk-hai of Isengard. The only thing that becomes confused when there is no Uruk-hai of Mordor is your argument that the terms Uruks & Uruk-hai are equivalent. Doubtless this is the reason that you insist the 'rebel Uruk-hai' passage unambiguously refers to Uruk-hai of Mordor. This is not quite the same level of confusion Tolkien would generate by intentionally having Treebeard make mis-leading statements about the abilities of Orcs in the sunlight, is it?

Have I said that Treebeard made mis-leading statements about the abilities of Orcs in the sunlight? Has anyone said that? Perhaps you need to reread what it was I said about Treebeard's 'statement'.

Remind me where the books say that the Nazgul could see that well, please. All I can recall is Strider saying:
"For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creature as spies, as we found at Bree. They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared."
<snip>
Let's just say I'm glad my entire theory doesn't rest on the visual acuity of Ringwraiths, nor the abilities of the fell beasts to describe different breeds of Orcs!

Good thing it was dark, when the Nazgul came. Of course he also sent out signals too. Their were horsemen rushing and orc-feet running toward the Tower, in answer to the signal. I wonder if they could see what happened, and report to the Ringwraith.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: Here we go again...

Originally posted by aragil
Tar-Elenion, by now you doubtlessly realize you are being argumentative. Greenwood and I don't assume our position is correct. We produce facts from the text which support our position. You seem to respond by 'trusting CT', rather than actually quoting from the texts under discussion. The soldier-Orcs of Mordor are repeatedly described as crook-legged with long arms. The soldier-Orcs of Isengard are described as large, swart, slant-eyed, thick legged, bearing man-like weapons, and most importantly being tolerant of the sun, of which the soldier-Orcs of Mordor are clearly described as being non-tolerant.

Yes, you two produce facts which support your position. When other facts are produced that do not support your position, they tend to be dismissed as contradictory or ambiguous, and thus irrelevant. Unfortunately I do not accept this dismissal on the say so of you two.
That I do not quote from the text is again a mischaracterization, I have provided any number of quotes. Of course those quotes tend to be declared 'ambiguous', 'contradictory' or 'irrelevant' when they do not agree with a certain position.

I'm glad you finally acknowledge the facts, but you seem to only pay lip service. In what way is sun-tolerance a 'physical characteristic'? If something like this doesn't distinguish breeds, then what does?

That 'I _finally_ acknowledge the facts'? Yet again, another specious mischaracterization. I stated there were differences quite early on in this thread. I will adress the rest, when I address your 'Contentions' post.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Greenwood
Sam wondering if the red light in the windows is a signal does not make it a signal. There are a number of problems with this. First there is the fact that everytime these windows are seen there is a red light in them. In The Two Towers, in The Stairs of Cirith Ungol, when Frodo and Sam first see the top of the tower of Cirith Ungol:
<snip>
Thus every time the windows are described there is a red light in them. Is there constant signaling going on?

Next problem with the red light being a signal to Barad-dur, the windows face the wrong way!<snip>

Finally, Barad-dur is simply too far away. Based on the scale on the map of Mordor in the back of my copy of The Return of the King, Barad-dur is approximately eighty miles from Cirith Ungol. No signal of red light is going to carry that far.<snip>
We also have the problem of speed and time. If the Nazgul was despatched from Barad-dur then its steed would have to have flown at speeds of approximately 100 mph or more to get there in time. If the Nazgul came from Minas Morgul (which solves the time and speed problem) why is he wasting his time "scouting" the area. Wouldn't he land as soon as he arrived over Cirith Ungol and take possession of the prisoner he has been sent to retrieve?

That Sam sees a light suddenly flaring and considers that it may be a signal, lends credence to the fact that it may be a signal along with the stated intention of good loyal Shagrat to send messages to Barad-dur (this is the evidence that you said was not there:
"There is no evidence that Shagrat got any message off other than what he took himself when he ran from Sam."
That the windows same saw 'were facing the wrong way' does not mean that there were not others facing the right way.
It was hard for a signal to go from Rohan to Minas Tirith (distance and all that), but it did.
When was the Nazgul dispatched? How many messages had Shagrat sent? When did he send his first? Frodo was taken on the 13th, rescued on the 14th. Quite some time had passed. How much time passed between the 'signal' Sam noted and the arrival of the Nazgul. Sam 'sat down' for a while. He crept along for a time. He was moving with care. It seems there was enough time to me. Perhaps the Nazgul felt something was wrong and wanted to observe what it was, before landing.

It is true that Tolkien never uses Uruk-hai in the singular. It is for this reason that we do not know if the singular is different from the plural. Before you waste all our time by typing a request for examples of Tolkien using the same word in LOTR as both a plural and singular noun I will refer to the word Nazgul. It is repeatedly used both ways throughout LOTR. Example: the Lord of the Nazgul speaking to Eowyn at the battle of Pelennor Fields -- "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey!" Thus we have Nazgul being used here as both a singular and plural noun.

I had no intention of making such a request, so the mis-characterization is unnecessary, I am well aware of the use of Nazgul in both the singular and plural. My request for the use of 'Uruk-hai' in the singular was intended to be serious. We both seem to agree that it does not exist.

 

[Greenwood]

Quote by Tar-Elenion
Yes, you two produce facts which support your position. When other facts are produced that do not support your position, they tend to be dismissed as contradictory or ambiguous, and thus irrelevant. Unfortunately I do not accept this dismissal on the say so of you two.

Yes, Aragil and I produce facts. You present only your interpretations and claim they are facts. Our facts are in the form of passages from LOTR: an entire chapter titled "The Uruk-hai" about Merry and Pippin in the clutches of Saruman's troops in which these said troops repeatedly call themselves Uruk-hai, Saruman's troops at Helm's Deep again calling themselves Uruk-hai, Gandalf referring to "Uruks from Mordor", a Mordor orc calling himself and compatriots Uruks, etc. Tolkien in the Seige of Gondor chapter refers back to Pippin's captivity and calls Saruman's troops Uruk-hai. These are indeed all facts. You present interpretations and claim they are facts: the statement of the tracker orc is "rebel Uruk-hai", not "rebel Mordor Uruk-hai". The latter would be a fact; claiming that the former equals the latter is an interpretation on your part. You claim that some of Gorbag's troops escaped Cirith Ungol, but you present no facts to prove this, just interpretations. You claim Shagrat sent messages before leaving the fortress, but you present no facts, just your speculations. Appendix F does not say "the great soldier orcs of Mordor and Isengard are called Uruk-hai". That would be a fact, but the text does not say it. The text says: "Related. no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'." Your claim that uruk and Uruk-hai in these two sentences are equivalent is your interpretation, not a fact.

Our arguments are based on facts and yes, some interpretations based on those facts. Your arguments are based on your interpretations which you then try to treat as facts.

 

[aragil]

An apology

All right, Tar-Elenion I'm sorry that my recent posts have become snippy, especially if I have been mis-representing your arguments. I just can't believe that we're still arguing this, as your arguments have seemed to become more speculative and less quote-based recently. Greenwood and I have come up with five contentions regarding why Uruk-hai are a different breed from the Uruks. These contentions are backed up with numerous quotes from the books. I'm sure that each quote is somewhat ambiguous, so if you want to use your usual habit of responding to each quote separately while ignoring the rest I'm sure you'll be able to do it. The problem is that we've never tried to say that beyond all doubt Uruk-hai are a different breed than Uruks. What we've said is that given all of the evidence in the texts, it is most likely that Uruk-hai are a different breed than Uruks. We've done our best to keep all of the evidence on the table in our arguments. You seem to be focusing on 'rebel Uruk-hai', and at least temporarily ignoring the rest of the arguments.

Originally posted by aragil:
3) Could Orcs of different breeds (i.e. Uruks vs. Uruk-hai) be mistaken for eachother (could an Orc really mistake Sam and Frodo for fellow Orcs)?
Originally posted by Tar-Elenion:
3)Anything is possible, (considering that it happened, certainly).

(I assume the paranthesis refers to the 'Frodo and Sam as Orcs mistake', not the 'rebel Uruk-hai' mistake)
It is indeed possible that the term 'Uruk-hai' is mistakenly applied to Gorbag's Uruks. Frodo is not a 'sort of dwarf-man', he is a hobbit. Hobbits are 'smaller than Dwarves: less stout and stocky that is, even when they are not actually much shorter.' Frodo did not have a beard, dwarves were bearded as a rule. Frodo could have been described as a 'dwarf-man', but this description would have been inaccurate because Frodo was a slim, beardless, Hobbit. Gorbag's Orcs could have been described as 'rebel Uruk-hai', but there is nothing that indicates this description was accurate either. Once we realize that 'rebel Uruk-hai' might be a mistaken label, it behooves us to look at the rest of the text. What does the rest of the text say? No mention of Uruk-hai belonging to Mordor (unless you've found one and are refusing to enlighten us). So here is what we have:
1)'rebel Uruk-hai' is used in a list of mistaken identities, so it might be a mistaken usage (as you acknowledge, anything is possible).
2)Nowhere in the text does Uruk-hai refer to Mordor Orcs.
Examining the above evidence it seems that the most likely result of this passage is that Gorbag's Orcs were mistaken for 'rebel Uruk-hai', just as Frodo and Same themselves are later mistaken for Orcs.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Have I said that Treebeard made mis-leading statements about the abilities of Orcs in the sunlight? Has anyone said that? Perhaps you need to reread what it was I said about Treebeard's 'statement'.

'He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. Brm, hoom! Worse than that he has been doing something to them; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, ir has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?'
"'What of the dawn?' they jeered. 'We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. .... "'

"But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun," said Gamling. "And neither will the wild men of the hills. Do you not hear their voices."

'Finally, there is a cogent point though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile...'

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion, http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2146&perpage=15&pagenumber=2
As you note, Treebeard does not specifically refer to the Uruk-hai.
And as JRRT said of Treebeard (and Treebeard's reference to Orcs): "Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot that he does not know or understand."

Treebeard does not need to say Uruk-hai, the other quotes imply that he is speaking of the Uruk-hai. As you well know Tolkien's letter #153 to Mr. Hastings (a devout Catholic) is regarding whether or not Treebeard attributed the power of creation to Morgoth, not whether Orcs could always endure sunlight. Again I'm sorry if we've mis-characterized your argument here. Even without Treebeard's statement the above quotes give us the following:
1) Saruman's Orcs (the Uruk-hai as they call themselves) 'endure the sun'.
2) Saruman has crossed the breeds of Orcs and Men.
3) Crossing Orcs and Men makes the result (Orc-men, Men-orcs, half-orcs, whatever you'd like to call them) sun-tolerant.
I have assumed your problem with Treebeard was that he was speculating about orcs enduring sunlight. As we look back at the statement it is clear that he is speculating about how Saruman got sun-enduring Orcs: did Saruman cross Orcs and Men? As Professor Tolkien later states, Saruman did cross orcs and men; and as Gamling says, crossing Orcs with men does make the orcs sun-tolerant, so our arboreal friend can be excused for his speculation. If you agree that Treebeard was correct when he said Saruman's Orcs could endure the sun (as the claim of the Uruk-hai implies), then I guess we need never bring up Treebeard's trustworthiness again.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
What was said re the UT index by CT has already been posted.
Believe what you want. I choose not to believe CT is a plagiarist (this in no way is to be taken to imply that you are calling CT a plagiarist).

Are you saying that by giving Foster credit in assistance and then using an idea of his CT becomes a plagiarist? Wouldn't giving his father credit for parts of the index and using those parts in his own index be equally plagiarizing by your definition? I have the utmost respect for CT in giving us an idea of how his father invented Middle-Earth. If CT has had to use other's ideas to help him along that does not in any way diminish CT's accomplishments, as he has presented himself with an absolutely monumental task (I'm sure Greenwood agrees with me here). But unless CT is the Almighty, then there is certainly the possibility that his ideas are not in accord with his father's, especially on a subject that is as small in detail as what we are here discussing. Again this in no way reflects poorly on CT, unless you constrain him to be perfect in everything he does.

Originally posted by aragil:
ps. Still waiting for you to produce a statement saying there were Uruk-hai based in Mordor. Before you do this there is no reason to wonder who 'rebel Uruk-hai' refers to- it refers to the Isengarders, as they are the only Uruk-hai mentioned in the text.
Originally posted by Tar-Elenion:
You are more than entitled to your opinion.

You seem to be implying here that you are under no burden of proof to show that there are Uruk-hai from Mordor when you speculate about the likelihood of 'rebel Uruk-hai' applying to such creatures. I say seem because I don't want to be accused of mis-representing your argument. The problem here is that I could say that there were purple dinosaurs in Mordor with yellow polka-dots, nobody could stop me. However, if I wanted others to take my suggestion seriously then I better show some evidence for said creatures, otherwise I'm just blowing smoke.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: Why the Uruks belong in Morrrdorrr, while the Uruk-hai reside in Isengard:

I had to snip for sake of length. I tried to keep the context correct. Refer to initial posts by Aragil for full context.

Originally posted by aragil
Contention 1: The Orcs of Isengard always identify themselves as 'Uruk-hai', never as 'Uruks', or 'Us plain-old-Orcs'

We agree, noting the narrative identifies them as Orcs.

Contention 2: The Uruk-hai are sun-tolerant, which is something strange for Orcs
This is something we are told from the Silmarillion, through the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Even Orcs which appear to be Sauron's elite Uruks are not as fearless as the Uruk-hai demonstrate themselves to be in the full sunlight. When our good professor spends so much time telling us how much Orcs hate the sun, and then suddenly begins to describe sun-tolerant Orcs, there is a good chance he is doing it on purpose.
1)The Silmarillion, p. 127
2)Unfinished Tales, p. 285

Both examples take place before the great-soldier orcs (which appeared late in the Third Age) were bred. When the good professor never says that the great soldier-orcs of Mordor are effected by the sun, while saying that the 'Northerners' with them are, could he be doing it on purpose?

3)The Hobbit, p. 100

These are lesser Orcs. (Not to mention the external history).

4)The Fellowship of the Ring, p. 433 "The Sun sinks early. The Orcs will not, maybe, come out till after dusk, but we must be far away before nightfall."
Of course there were Uruks in Moria, but still the Orcs did not come after the party until nightfall. Can anyone imagine Ugluk and his boys waiting until night to follow the Fellowship?

There were "...Orcs, very many of them... and some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor." Some were from Mordor, most were lesser Orcs who we both agree did not like to be out in the sun. Those who eventually pursued all seem to have been lesser Orcs.

5)The Two Towers, pp. 64-65 '"But what are we going to do at sunrise?" said some of the Northerners. "Go on running," said Ugluk. "What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?" "But we can't run in the sunlight." "You'll run with me behind you," said Ugluk.'
Here we see Ugluk and the Uruk-hai succeeding where the Uruks in Moria failed. Not only do the Uruk-hai come out at night, but they drive the runts of Moria out too.

The 'Moria runts' were not Uruks. They were the lesser Orcs.

6)The Two Towers, p. 69 "Then he saw that the sun was sinking, falling behind the Misty Mountains; shadows reached over the land. The soldiers of Mordor lifted their heads and also began to put on speed.
These soldiers of Mordor are Uruks (see post http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=45589#post45589). Yet they clearly do better when the sun is off their backs (or is it mere coincidence that they run faster the moment Tolkien describes the sun going down). The Uruk-hai of Isengard do equally well with sun or no (they care not for the sun).

This is the passage I have been waiting for someone to provide.
This passage could support your interpretion that they are effected by the sun. However it is said that the 'Northerners were flagging in the rays of the bright sun', not the Mordorians. The Isengarders also put on a burst of speed at this time too. But why are they (all alike) putting on speed? Is it because the sun is going down? Or is it because the 'Whiteskins were coming, riding swiftly, far behind but gaining on the Orcs, like a tide over the flats on folk straying on quicksand'. They run faster, not because the sun is setting, but because of the Rohirrim.

7)The Return of the King, p. 138 'For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; now darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them.'
Does anybody believe that Sauron would not send Uruks to the battle of Pelannor? Yet here all of the hosts of Mordor are fleeing, Uruk, normal Orc, and Man (and troll-men) alike, just after the mention of that pesky sun. Do the men in the group ever save face?

All of them fleeing? Just because the sun started shining?
Or were they fleeing in terror because unexpectedly, without warning and unchallenged, 6000 heavy cavalry were charging down on them. I rather think the later.

8)The Return of the King, p. 148

This passage is refering specifically to those Eomer and his Riders were fighting against (the Southrons and (slightly later) the reserves). The orcs had earlier been driven to the River.

9)The Return of the King, p. 151
Apparently the men do regain their composure, and go down fighting. Surely there is another mention of the Orcs, especially if the Uruks are sun tolerant like the Uruk-hai?

You cited it below in your 10th point. The earlier passage notes that orcs (along with some of the resrves) were driven away by the knights of Dol Amroth.

10)The Return of the King, p. 150 'East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight.'
Bah! Cowards until the end. Could it be beyond coincidence that Tolkien mentions that the Orcs of Mordor hate the sunlight? I don't recall any such passage during the carnage at Helm's Deep.

Thse same Orcs were fighting in the sunlight the whole morning through. That they hated the sunlight is different than the sunlight greatly effected their ability to fight.

Contention 3: The Uruk-hai are referred to as a new breed with strange un-orcish qualities, the Uruks have been around since TA 2475 (544 years by the time of Helm's Deep), so the two are unlikely to be the same breed.

It has already been acknowledged (by me very early on in this thread) that there were differences between the two. Both varieties were still 'great soldier-orcs'.

The Two Towers, p. 20 '<snip>And Aragorn looked on the slain, and he said: "Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!" There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs; and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men.'

Sauron's use short broad bladed swords as well. Sam takes one from among the Orcs at Cirith Ungol and arms Frodo with it. As for the bows, Saruman's tended to be larger in stature, and thus more suited to use the larger bows.

The Two Towers, p. 32
The Two Towers, p. 48
The Two Towers, p. 180

No disagreement with what these passages say here.

Contention 4: Uruks of Grishnakh are clearly described in opposition to the Uruk-hai of Ugluk
please see:
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=45589#post45589
[some portions of the post quoted here]
The Return of the King, p. 223 'Behind him came Shagrat, a large orc with long arms that, as he ran crouching, reached to the ground.'

This passage is especially interesting when considering it with the descriptions of Grishnakh and his boys: 'a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground', and 'a couple of score of others like him: long-armed crook-legged Orcs.' What springs out from this passage of course is the repeated mention of long arms.

What also is interesting is that while Grishnakh is 'short', Shagrat is 'large'. Why can't there be different 'breeds' of 'great soldier-orcs' (i.e. Uruk-hai)? They don't all have to be the same.

From the Ugluk - Shagrat conversation we can resonably infer that Shagrat is a Uruk (what other sort of Orc would be captain of an entire tower?). I think from the similarity in descriptions it would be reasonable to infer that Grishnakh and Shagrat are the same variety of Orc- Uruks. It could be argued that all Orcs have long arms, but the Orcs of Moria are never described as such. Neither are the Uruk-hai:
The Two Towers, p. 20
The Two Towers, p. 67
If the Uruk-hai were really the same as the Uruks, here would be the optimal place to describe them similarly. Yet he does not: thrice he refers to the 'long arms' of the Uruks, twice he refers to the swarthiness and slant-eyes of the Isengarders.

'Swarthy'= dark skinned. Like the 'black Uruks of Mordor'. Like the 'huge orc-cheiftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail, his broad flat face swart'.

Conention 5: Uruk-hai are half-orcs, which nobody has ever accused the Uruks of being (that is one of Ugluk's faults
please see:
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=45605#post45605

Gamling refers to 'half-orcs and goblin-men' (alomg with the hill men). He _could_ be referring to the Uruk-hai of Saruman (whom I have noted earlier may well have Man blood). Aragorn uses the term 'half-orc' in reference to the 'man-high goblin faced creatures' that Merry speaks of at Isengard and which reminded him of the 'Southerner'. These are not Uruk-hai. They march with the Men, the Uruk-hai do not.
In 'Scouring of the Shire' thse same appear again, 'large ill favoured Men, squint-eyed and sallow-faced' (Sam and Merry liken them to the 'Southerner'and the 'goblin faced men' at Isengard). Pippen cals them 'half-orcs and ruffians'. Merry kills the leader who was 'a great squint-eyed brute like a huge orc'. But thse 'half-orcs' are referred to as Men, not as Orcs nor as Uruk-hai.