Was Boromir's hesitation to go to Lothlórien justified?

[Inderjit S]

Here is an interesting "what if question". What if, in the summons that Boromir and Faramir dreamt told them to go to Lothlórien instead of Rivendell. I understand that in context, in context mind you, this is totally incongruent with the story, but the real question that I am asking is if the dreams had summoned Boromir/Faramir to Lorien would they have gone?

Boromir is suspicious of Lorien but has no such misgivings, or misgivings to such an extent if Rivendell. Why? Was it because of the enigmatic nature of Lothlórien? Well, Rivendell was at least as secretive and enigmatic. Of course Rivendell was "hidden" whereas Lothlórien was there to be seen-but not entered. Was it this great mystery about the strange force in Lothlórien that gave her such a bad reputation? Or was it for geographic reasons? Was it because Lothlórien was so close that they feared it more then Rivendell? Or didn't many people know about Rivendell? Faramir and Boromir had to ask Denethor what Imladris was, and he has the loremaster of the city told them. Faramir was more of a loremaster then the bellicose Boromir, surely he knew? And he was an elf-lover. Rivendell also took part in the destruction of Angmar, but then again the lore in Gondor was waning. Denethor implies that he knows that the leader of the Nazgûl was the king of Angmar, though again he was the loremaster of Gondor. Rivendell was also besieged during the reign of the W-K, but it is doubtful whether this was common knowledge in Gondor since most of the lore on Arnor came from Bilbo’s inquires in Rivendell and latter Merry and Pippin's accosting of the poor Elves. Or was the fact that Gondor had assimilated the axioms and prejudices of the "middle men" as Faramir calls them and their intrinsic mistrust of Elves? If so then why the greater mistrust of one realm over the other, or was Lothlórien’s reputation that bad? If Boromir had never heard of Rivendell then why should he deign to go there so wilfully? Or did he overcome his psedou xenophobia and go to Rivendell as a matter of the utmost necessity? What would have happened if he had been summoned to Lothlórien in similar circumstances-would the summons have been obeyed? Even Faramir is wary of Lothlórien and the danger that comes with entering. Even Treebeard is. Or is there another explanation or thesis? Or can you juxtapose a few of these theories into one? Or does one stand out to you as being the definitive one? If so why? Or is a totally boring, topic by some pedantic, overly-fastidious member?

 

[Confusticated]

Lothlorien was less welcoming to strangers. Quicker to hinder than to welcome.

How about a extremely powerful female? One who can read others to a point that ignorant man would call magic.

These are things can be easily twisted, the bit of truth within the false that makes it seem valid.

It seems (Aragorn's words) that this attitude towards Lothlorien grew during Denethor's time. His pride and distrust probably helped cause a frame of mind among the people where they were quicker to view any old tales of Lothlorien with fear instead of wisdom. If you've already decided something is evil, you'll read evil into any old tales you hear instead of viewing them with an open mind.

Boromir did have something to fear going into Lothlorien.

 

[Hobbit-GalRosie]

Hey, are you saying there's something wrong with pedants like me?! I resemble that remark!

I think that Lórien represented the heart of elven-dom as it were, the more perilous side of Faerie, with all the prohibitions and uncertainties, whereas "The Last Homely House" at Rivendell was made to be a refuge for all. They were perfectly willing to harbour 13 dwarves there, whearas strangers of any sort were rarely allowed within the borders of the Golden Wood. Perhaps it's something like the difference between reading a fairy-tale and playing some overly-involved RPG, one might feel able to keep a safe distance from any danger in the case of the former, whereas the danger is the main attraction of the latter ("whereas" is turning out to be an awfully useful word in this post, isn't it?). It is strange that Boromir should set out on a quest for a place he had not heard of and had little hope of finding, but I believe he was the type that saw such tasks as his duty to his country, and took a great deal of pride in carrying them out. If indeed he had been told to go to Lórien I do not know if he would have; in that case mayhap he'd have thought the dreams a kind of madness, or a message from a power that meant him harm, considering the kind of threat he felt Lórien was. I'd believe more readily that he would have gone, based on that fiery personality of his, but a good deal more warily.

All right, time to cut this post short before it gets really out of hand. I could probably chatter on for a few more days, but I would scare off anyone else with an opinion on the matter.

 

[Rangerdave]

First of all, If Boromir were summoned through his vision to Lorien, his character would have been drastically cut short. His primary mission was to seek out the sword Narsil.(see quote below) If the summons was changed to Lorien, he would have been introduced months later. In short, he would have been introduced just in time to die down stream. Not much in the way of literary presence for the heir to the Steward of Gondor. Besides, if his destination was to the Golden Wood, he would have left Minas Tirith much later than he did. Running a very good chance of being waylaid by Saruman. What a bummer that would have been.

We have come by long ways – out of Rivendell, or Imladris as some call it.' Here Faramir started and grew intent. 'Seven companions we had: one we lost at Moria, the others we left at Parth Galen above Rauros: two of my kin; a Dwarf there was also, and an Elf, and two Men. They were Aragorn; and Boromir, who said that he came out of Minas Tirith, a city in the South.'
'Boromir! ' all the four men exclaimed.
'Boromir son of the Lord Denethor?' said Faramir, and a strange stern look came into his face. 'You came with him? That is news indeed, if it be true. Know, little strangers, that Boromir son of Denethor was High Warden of the White Tower, and our Captain-General: sorely do we miss him. Who are you then, and what had you to do with him? Be swift, for the Sun is climbing!'
'Are the riddling words known to you that Boromir brought to Rivendell? ' Frodo replied.

Seek for the Sword that was Broken.
In Imladris it dwells.

'The words are known indeed,' said Faramir in astonishment. `It is some token of your truth that you also know them.'
`Aragorn whom I named is the bearer of the Sword that was Broken,' said Frodo. 'And we are the Halflings that the rhyme spoke of.'
`That I see,' said Faramir thoughtfully. `Or I see that it might be so. And what is Isildur's Bane? '
`That is hidden,' answered Frodo. `Doubtless it will be made clear in time.'

As for the reputation of Lorien. It is fairlt clear that the conventional wisdom of Gondor is "avoid at all costs!"

'Indeed deep in the wood they dwell,' said Aragorn, and sighed as if some memory stirred in him. `We must fend for ourselves tonight. We will go forward a short way, until the trees are all about us, and then we will turn aside from the path and seek a place to rest in.'
He stepped forward; but Boromir stood irresolute and did not follow. 'Is there no other way? ' he said.
`What other fairer way would you desire? ' said Aragorn.
`A plain road, though it led through a hedge of swords,' said Boromir. `By strange paths has this Company been led, and so far to evil fortune. Against my will we passed under the shades of Moria, to our loss. And now we must enter the Golden Wood, you say. But of that perilous land we have heard in Gondor, and it is said that few come out who once go in; and of that few none have escaped unscathed.'
`Say not _unscathed_, but if you say _unchanged_, then maybe you will speak the truth said Aragorn. But lore wanes in Gondor, Boromir, if in the city of those who once were wise they now speak evil of Lothlórien. Believe what you will, there is no other way for us – unless you would go back to Moria-gate, or scale the pathless mountains, or swim the Great River all alone.'
`Then lead on! ' said Boromir. `But it is perilous.'

Nope, I don’t think the boy was too happy about being in the Golden Wood.





Cheers

RD

 

[Inderjit S]

As I said my question was not there to fit in with the storyline or make contextual "sense". I am questioning the anti-Lorien bias (and possible anti-Elven, as it seems in his rant to Frodo when he attempts to take the ring) of not only Boromir but also the people of Gondor and Rohan. Whether or not it makes sense is not important.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Does Inder overuse the thesaurus?

The great friendship between the races of Men and Elves crumbled after the Last Alliance. Elves and Men simply grew apart, with Imladris being the only elven place still friendly and open to all free peoples, not least maybe because of Elrond's Edainic ancestors. Secrecy was most likely a great factor in keeping your realm safe from intruders, and even so called 'friends' may inadvertently spill some of your secrets to the enemy (if you let them in on these secrets of course).
It may also be that Elves (at least the less wise or foresighted among them) have come to be mistrustful of Men, since it was Men (i.e. Isildur) who let evil continue into a new age.

A related thread: Galadriel's lesser known feat

 

[Inderjit S]

But a lot of the Dúnedain of Arnor kept close contact with the Elves. Was this because they had two large Elven realms close by and they were allied with them in a long, hard-fought war against the W-K and this led to a intrinsic bond between the two? Rivendell also acted as the protector of the line of Isildur, though we all know Elrond only did that to fulfil the prophecy that if he did so he could dump his daughter onto some silly ranger one day to avoid the pernicious little creature from following him into Aman. Given the Elven fetish for incest he could have dumped her onto one of her two creepy brothers but presumably Elrond wanted THEM to rot in Middle-Earth too, and who could blame him?

The lake-men also kept up pretty cordial relations with Thranduil's people, but then again the lake-men were too stupid to realise that they were in the middle of an Elven crack-cocaine turf war, so the Elves had to feign that they liked the cave-men, sorry lake-men's company, despite the rather suspect odours that exuded from their shanty lake town.

The main "secret" about Lorien was the ring. Haldir has an inkling that Galadriel possess something powerful, like some kind of painless leg-wax or something like that (or so we get in his hints i.e. "Galadriel sure has hairless legs" "Elves prefer the natural types, that’s why Galadriel was dumped with that idiot Celeborn, who'd marry an ape for money, which in way he did" etc.) There is also the secret of the annual half-price barometer sale, of course.

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

Perhaps the superstitious attitudes towards Lorien held in Gondor and Rohan were in part a not-altogether-unintended effect of Galadriel's protective "spell" (yes, I know "spell" is probably the wrong term) over that land, as well as a by-product of the estrangement of Men and Elves in the Third Age.

And I agree with Ithrynluin that Elrond's links to the Edain (and his assistance in their wars against the servants of Sauron--including Angmar) would result in the folk of Gondor (or their loremasters at any rate) being more favourably disposed towards Rivendell.

 

[Ithrynluin]

I suggest you become a stand up Middle-Earth comedian, Inder!

But a lot of the Dúnedain of Arnor kept close contact with the Elves.

Like I said, Elrond had a bond and obligation towards the scattered Dunedain - they were the great, great, great......grandchildren of his brother, so to speak, and so his own kinsmen.

The lake-men also kept up pretty cordial relations with Thranduil's people,

I think that was more of a formal business arrangement than genuine friendship and trust.

As for Galadriel, I think the awe and fear of her are a product of her own greatness (and great insight into the minds of others), her ring, and the general estrangement betw. Men and Elves, much like Art says.

 

[Inderjit S]

I think that was more of a formal business arrangement than genuine friendship and trust.

Good point, but some degree of friendship must have devloped between the two in order for the bussiness to first come about and for the ensuing trade arrangements to run smoothly. Certainly they didn't distrust Elves so much that they hid from them, like say the Breemen may have done.