Was Boromir's proposed alternative strategy flawed?

[d4rk3lf]

I think the One Ring would artificially extend a human's life just as any of the other 16, thus making them undead beings. The main difference would be that the One would grant a human greater power, just as the Nine gave nine human kings power over others, though the wearer would still be the slave and not the master.

Yup, I stand corrected.
I somehow connected being wraith to automatically being submitted to somebody will, and this is the reason why I said people would never become wraith with The One Ring.
I was wrong.

At the same time, in his arrogance and hubris, Sauron believes the opposition at the Black Gate will be crushed, whether they have the Ring or not and no matter how many mighty names are in attendance. Of course, without Frodo, Sam and Gollum, he'd be right.

Yes, but only if they act foolishly, like Gandalf advised for the sake of diversion.
If Aragorn claimed the ring, then sit still until he gather very strong army, or even retreat to Rohan or Isengard (leaving Minas Tirith) to have time to make his army, even stronger, Sauron would be in great fear indeed (at least that was my impression from the book).

Yes, Tolkien does seem to contradict himself here, though this is somewhat addressed in the book:

Well, to stand in professor defense, he probably meant, if Aragorn was rushing to meet the Sauron with weak army.
And also, there is possibility, that Ring would make humans (even Aragorn) too confident, and rushing without second (strategic) thought.

 

[Muskrat]

After all, Aragorn did defeat Sauron in the test of wills concerning the palantir. He was a pretty powerful dude.

 

[Radaghast]

After all, Aragorn did defeat Sauron in the test of wills concerning the palantir. He was a pretty powerful dude.

Tolkien addressed that too in the letter I quoted on the previous page. Aragorn was able to wrest control of the Stone of Orthanc because it was his, and also because the contest of wills was across a great distance. The matter might be very different if they were in the same proximity.

 

[HurinTheSteadfast]

Well, Numenor was a powerful kingdom, perhaps viewed by Boromir as THE most powerful ever to exist.
Some of the kingdoms of the Elves could rival or surpass it of course, but the most powerful of them were secret, as opposed to Numenor's conquering tendencies, and would not have been portrayed as more powerful in Boromir's history books. Also Numenor was THE ONLY kingdom to actually subdue Sauron himself. I think it is not so much himself or any one man he is putting trust in but rather Gondor as a nation, and a Numenorean one at that, which though significantly weaker than Numenor, was by all appearances the main obstacle to the Dark Lord's world domination. Remember: Boromir was raised as a captain of a great nation of men, and the only thing he can conceive to match armies and power with is armies and power of the other side.

 

[Barrow Wight]

Well, Numenor was a powerful kingdom, perhaps viewed by Boromir as THE most powerful ever to exist.
Some of the kingdoms of the Elves could rival or surpass it of course, but the most powerful of them were secret, as opposed to Numenor's conquering tendencies, and would not have been portrayed as more powerful in Boromir's history books. Also Numenor was THE ONLY kingdom to actually subdue Sauron himself. I think it is not so much himself or any one man he is putting trust in but rather Gondor as a nation, and a Numenorean one at that, which though significantly weaker than Numenor, was by all appearances the main obstacle to the Dark Lord's world domination. Remember: Boromir was raised as a captain of a great nation of men, and the only thing he can conceive to match armies and power with is armies and power of the other side.

That may well have been Boromir's thinking, but (1) even Ar-Pharazon didn't try to use the One Ring; and (2) the rings of power corrupted those few Numenoreans who were given access to them. Of course, in his defense, Boromir may not have known the details of such history, however, as he headed south from Rivendell at the end of the Third Age.

 

[Olorgando]

That may well have been Boromir's thinking, but (1) even Ar-Pharazon didn't try to use the One Ring; and (2) the rings of power corrupted those few Numenoreans who were given access to them. Of course, in his defense, Boromir may not have known the details of such history, however, as he headed south from Rivendell at the end of the Third Age.

There seems to be one train of thought in JRRT's writing that Sauron left the One Ring in Barad-dûr when he went to Númenor, and "took it up again" after his return from Númenor's destruction. Read it in aside in Hammond & Scull's 2005 "TLotR - A Reader's Companion just days ago.
Also, the making of the Rings of Power was very much a Sauron-Elves of Eregion affair, of which humans probably knew practically nothing, especially about The One and The Three. Ar-Pharazôn wasn't "talking to" the Elves anymore, who were keeping The Three hidden and secret anyway. The Nine for men had been distributed more than a millennium earlier, as the Nazgûl are said to first appear around Second Age 2251. I don't think the question of Ar-Pharazôn using the One Ring ever arose. Sauron didn't need it to dupe the Númenóreans after SA 3262.

 

[Barrow Wight]

There seems to be one train of thought in JRRT's writing that Sauron left the One Ring in Barad-dûr when he went to Númenor, and "took it up again" after his return from Númenor's destruction. Read it in aside in Hammond & Scull's 2005 "TLotR - A Reader's Companion just days ago.
Also, the making of the Rings of Power was very much a Sauron-Elves of Eregion affair, of which humans probably knew practically nothing, especially about The One and The Three. Ar-Pharazôn wasn't "talking to" the Elves anymore, who were keeping The Three hidden and secret anyway. The Nine for men had been distributed more than a millennium earlier, as the Nazgûl are said to first appear around Second Age 2251. I don't think the question of Ar-Pharazôn using the One Ring ever arose. Sauron didn't need it to dupe the Númenóreans after SA 3262.

I agree that Sauron probably did not have the Ring when he spent time in Numenor. If his physical body was destroyed with Numenor and he returned to Mordor only as a shapeless spirit, I'm not sure he could have salvaged a material thing like the RIng and brought it with him. Accordingly, Ar-Pharazon was never put to the test of the Ring. I would think, though, that the Numenoreans were aware of the Nazgul and may have known more about who the Nine were than we do, at least those who were of Numenorean origin. Not that Boromir knew any of this . . . .

 

[Radaghast]

In one letter (#211 in The Letters of JRR Tolkien) Tolkien said Sauron did have the Ring while in Númenor and used it against Ar-Pharazôn, who was clueless about the Ring:

He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them).

In the same letter he also addressed the problem of a shapeless spirit transporting a physical object (not all of the quote has to do with it; I just thought it interesting enough to include):

Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.

He might have contradicted himself elsewhere on this as far as I know (and he has contradicted himself on occasion) but whatever arguments there might be against Sauron having the Ring in NúmenorI think there is an equally good argument for his having it.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I always got the feeling Tolkien wasn't entirely comfortable with the idea of a disembodied spirit carrying a physical object around; I know I wasn't.

He may have just painted himself into a corner with that one.

 

[Elthir]

Hammond and Scull do write that Sauron: "Once again he took up the Ring. . ." [commentary Shadow of the Past, Lord of the Rings, Reader's Companion]

But in their commentary to Apendix A, they also quote the letter Radaghast just quoted, wherein Tolkien states that Sauron had the One in Numenor. In the Shadow of the Past entry, Hammond and Scull are basically using Tolkien's wording from Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age:
"He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; . . ."

And, as I've babbled before in these halls: according to the Oxford English Dictionary, one definition of "take up" is: "c. With special obj., implying a purpose of using in some way: as, to take up one's pen, to proceed or begin to write; to take up a book (i.e. with the purpose to read); to take up the (or one's) cross (see CROSS n. 4, 10): to take up ARMS, [etc.]"

So, for example, if Aragorn were to fight in some great war after the fall of Sauron, one could say (if somewhat poetically) that he once again took up Anduril for the cause of the West, and that need not mean Aragorn had necessarily been parted from his sword in the meantime.

And I say this only to say that H&S possibly used JRRT's phrasing here to avoid taking a definitive stance. . . unless they do elsewhere in their Companion? I haven't got the whole thing mesmerized yet!

 

[Olorgando]

In one letter (#211 in The Letters of JRR Tolkien) Tolkien said Sauron did have the Ring while in Númenor and used it against Ar-Pharazôn, who was clueless about the Ring:

Hammond and Scull do write that Sauron: "Once again he took up the Ring. . ." [commentary Shadow of the Past, Lord of the Rings, Reader's Companion]
...
In the Shadow of the Past entry, Hammond and Scull are basically using Tolkien's wording from Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age:

I think I've mentioned before that I'm careful about JRRT's comment on his legendarium in letters, at least when there is other writing that he usually subjected to some amount of revision sooner or later.
As I'm currently close to finishing "The Lord of the Rings, Reader's Companion", I stumbled across both versions, the most recent one being the letter #211, from 14 October 1958. I don't know where to search for the time (possibly only a guess) when JRRT wrote what ended up in "Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age", but it's just my preference for such writing over content of letters that makes me tend towards Sauron's having left the One Ring in Barad-dûr.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

That's my "head-canon" anyway.

 

[Elthir]

I think I've mentioned before that I'm careful about JRRT's comment on his legendarium in letters, at least when there is other writing that he usually subjected to some amount of revision sooner or later.

Me too (careful about letters).

I don't know where to search for the time (possibly only a guess) when JRRT wrote what ended up in "Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age",

Compared to the 1958 "need not boggle letter" already mentioned, Hammond and Scull note that certainly some version of OTROP was in existence by autumn 1948. JRRT also mentions the work in a letter dated ?late 1951, and in April 1954 Tolkien offered to lend a typed copy to Naomi Mitchison.

That might give us a probable time-frame, at least.

but it's just my preference for such writing over content of letters that makes me tend towards Sauron's having left the One Ring in Barad-dûr.

No problem with your preference, of course, but I'll just add that in my opinion, given the above meaning of "take up", as I read things, we don't necessarily have a clash of written ideas here
(at least from an internal perspective).

For myself, I haven't done enough research (yet!) on fear (not the English word "fear" but the plural of fea) to see if I should indeed not boggle, as Tolkien suggests.

 

[Barrow Wight]

In one letter (#211 in The Letters of JRR Tolkien) Tolkien said Sauron did have the Ring while in Númenor and used it against Ar-Pharazôn, who was clueless about the Ring:


In the same letter he also addressed the problem of a shapeless spirit transporting a physical object (not all of the quote has to do with it; I just thought it interesting enough to include):


He might have contradicted himself elsewhere on this as far as I know (and he has contradicted himself on occasion) but whatever arguments there might be against Sauron having the Ring in NúmenorI think there is an equally good argument for his having it.

That's the beauty of this place---everyone can stare at the Ring as it sits exposed in the Council of Elrond and bring to bear all of the accumulated wisdom of the Tolkien works! Love it!

 

[Elthir]

I was brought to bear once.

.

apologies

 

[Barrow Wight]

I was brought to bear once.

.

apologies

I was wondering if Beorn would weigh in on this topic . . . .

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Looks like he's mourning an ent.🤔