Valandil
High King at Annuminas
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2004
- Messages
- 596
*the following is recycled from posts I made elsewhere regarding the actual age of Elendil, among other things about him... my apologies if they seem a bit disjointed without the other participants comments interspersed, but I've tried to stitch them together*
I think it would be logical to review, maybe reconsider the 'birth year' of SA 3119 given for Elendil in The Peoples of Middle Earth (Chapter 7: The Heirs of Elendil). I don't think we can take all the dates from PoMe as final. It appears that those notes were 'rough drafts' - tied into other rough drafts of 'The Tale of Years' and including these variations from the final dates given in LOTR appendices:
1. First drafts only had 13 Kings of Numenor - later expanded to, what - 24? Lifespans were commesurately shortened for some, especially later kings, in the later versions.
2. The early version had Sauron in Numenor for 200 years (all within the reign of Ar-Pharazon, of course) - while the later version had him there for about 60 years.
3. This one to me, is a clincher: In both versions, Amandil - father of Elendil, seems to have been a contemporary of Ar-Pharazon by the narrative. However, looking at the list of Kings in UT (which seems to fit well with published dates in LOTR appendices), Ar-Pharazon and Elendil were born within a year or two of one another. (and then we have Elendil living another 120+ years to die fighting Sauron hand-to-hand, apparently still quite vigorous, while Ar-Pharazon felt the onrushes of old age in 3319!)
I really think if Tolkien had been given the time, the opportunity, and maybe the desire to please little ole me, he would have revised some of those numbers to fit with changes he decided on later.
I've begun to imagine Elendil as a bachelor king... rather, a widower king. Suppose his wife was afflicted with a disease before they left Numenor and died there? Or maybe her health was poor and she didn't survive the sea voyage to Middle-earth? On arriving in Eriador and establishing Arnor, Elendil could probably have re-married. But he may have refrained from remarriage for several reasons:
1. Devotion to his first wife - and perhaps Numenorean custom
2. Desire to not have a new wife try to 'live up to' his first
3. Distaste for the thought of a man of his advanced years marrying a (likely) much younger woman.
4. His hope that either Isildur or Anarion would succeed him in Arnor - and not wishing to cloud the order of succession - especially with a child who would have closer ties to the North (ie - if HE married the daughter of a prominent 'old-timer' Numenorean colonist family).
This makes sense in some ways. Remember how Elendil used to spend his time... he probably spent some time building Annuminas at first, but then he seemed to most often be at the white towers... gazing into the palantir that looked toward the West. And the palantirs could look through time as well as distance, if properly guided. Was he JUST wistful for Numenor of old? Or was it for the love of his youth?
The High Kingship would likely pass to Isildur since he was the elder son. Elendil probably wanted one of his sons to eventually come and follow him at Arnor - leaving Gondor to the other. He probably hoped that Isildur would be the one to come north... so that the High Kingship would stay there, if nothing else. Both sons may have been quite content to stay at Gondor though. Did Elendil and his sons ever see each other... in person? Before the Last Alliance? I imagine so. They were in Middle-earth for 110 years before Sauron attacked, so I expect they visited one another now and then, despite the great distances, so that Elendil could see his grandchildren grow. He may have felt a particularly closeness with Elendur... which would make him feel even better about Isildur being the one to later rule Arnor... as Elendur would logically follow.
Then, lo and behold, Isildur comes north with his family. It's a war summons of course, but maybe they made other plans as well. Plans for Isildur to rule Arnor after Elendil. Maybe Elendil even tried to sell Isildur's wife on the idea... and maybe she began to fall in love with the north (maybe Elendil even arranged engagements with northern girls for all those fine young princely sons of hers!). And after over 100 years, the people of the north finally had hope for a queen.
But it was not to be - except that Isildur's wife was queen in name only for a couple years... between the time that word came of Elendil's death and the time that word came of Isildur's death.
In which case, if all my guesses are 'right' - when Valandil eventually married, Arnor finally had its first queen... 200 years after the kingdom was established.
In the PoMe chapter about earlier versions of The Akallabeth there are older versions of the Amandil/Elendil/Ar-Pharazon/Miriel stories. One of the earliest indicates that Elendil WAS the same age as Ar-Pharazon, but that was part of - or led into - a version where Amandil had a brother named Elentil - who was ALMOST engaged to Miriel (a different name for her was mostly used though) - until she saw her cousin Pharazon and was actually smitten by him. Even that almost gives the indication that the foursome were all in the same age range - since three were involved in a sort of 'love triangle' and the fourth was brother to one of them.
Anyway, the later version of the story - as it was published in The Silmarillion mentions that Amandil and Pharazon were 'friends from their youth' (EDIT: book handy - actual quote is "In the days of their youth together, Amandil had been dear to Pharazon,...") - which I take to mean that both are about the same age. And again, that earlier version seems to fit with 13 kings of Numenor, each coming to the throne at about 110 or 120 years of age and reigning for 240 or so - and the Fall of Numenor coming after Pharazon reigned for 220 years.
Also re-checked UT: it still seems odd for Elendil to be vigorous enough to battle Sauron at 322, when the last kings of Numenor were dying at 220 to either side of 230. Of course, that same argument could apply to Elendil's grandsons living to 280 and 260 (unless this was due to being Faithful - as lifespans on the island shortened even more as they drifted in obedience) - so maybe JRRT would have had to re-write the whole thing, at which point we just throw up our hands over the whole matter.
So, I'm inclined to see Amandil, rather than Elendil, as a contemporary of Pharazon - but maybe there's too little to go on - as it'd be hard to say just how JRRT would have smoothed out the rough edges, if given limitless time to resolve it all. (EDIT: but I'll go with the 'preponderance of the evidence'... for at least with Elendil and his heirs, if he died fighting Sauron at say 262, instead of 322 - it's reasonable that he had a grandson live to 280 - and we can attribute their ages surpassing the kings to being 'Faithful' - for while Tar-Palantir was, and died at 220 - we're told that he was 'weary from grief')
I think it would be logical to review, maybe reconsider the 'birth year' of SA 3119 given for Elendil in The Peoples of Middle Earth (Chapter 7: The Heirs of Elendil). I don't think we can take all the dates from PoMe as final. It appears that those notes were 'rough drafts' - tied into other rough drafts of 'The Tale of Years' and including these variations from the final dates given in LOTR appendices:
1. First drafts only had 13 Kings of Numenor - later expanded to, what - 24? Lifespans were commesurately shortened for some, especially later kings, in the later versions.
2. The early version had Sauron in Numenor for 200 years (all within the reign of Ar-Pharazon, of course) - while the later version had him there for about 60 years.
3. This one to me, is a clincher: In both versions, Amandil - father of Elendil, seems to have been a contemporary of Ar-Pharazon by the narrative. However, looking at the list of Kings in UT (which seems to fit well with published dates in LOTR appendices), Ar-Pharazon and Elendil were born within a year or two of one another. (and then we have Elendil living another 120+ years to die fighting Sauron hand-to-hand, apparently still quite vigorous, while Ar-Pharazon felt the onrushes of old age in 3319!)
I really think if Tolkien had been given the time, the opportunity, and maybe the desire to please little ole me, he would have revised some of those numbers to fit with changes he decided on later.
I've begun to imagine Elendil as a bachelor king... rather, a widower king. Suppose his wife was afflicted with a disease before they left Numenor and died there? Or maybe her health was poor and she didn't survive the sea voyage to Middle-earth? On arriving in Eriador and establishing Arnor, Elendil could probably have re-married. But he may have refrained from remarriage for several reasons:
1. Devotion to his first wife - and perhaps Numenorean custom
2. Desire to not have a new wife try to 'live up to' his first
3. Distaste for the thought of a man of his advanced years marrying a (likely) much younger woman.
4. His hope that either Isildur or Anarion would succeed him in Arnor - and not wishing to cloud the order of succession - especially with a child who would have closer ties to the North (ie - if HE married the daughter of a prominent 'old-timer' Numenorean colonist family).
This makes sense in some ways. Remember how Elendil used to spend his time... he probably spent some time building Annuminas at first, but then he seemed to most often be at the white towers... gazing into the palantir that looked toward the West. And the palantirs could look through time as well as distance, if properly guided. Was he JUST wistful for Numenor of old? Or was it for the love of his youth?
The High Kingship would likely pass to Isildur since he was the elder son. Elendil probably wanted one of his sons to eventually come and follow him at Arnor - leaving Gondor to the other. He probably hoped that Isildur would be the one to come north... so that the High Kingship would stay there, if nothing else. Both sons may have been quite content to stay at Gondor though. Did Elendil and his sons ever see each other... in person? Before the Last Alliance? I imagine so. They were in Middle-earth for 110 years before Sauron attacked, so I expect they visited one another now and then, despite the great distances, so that Elendil could see his grandchildren grow. He may have felt a particularly closeness with Elendur... which would make him feel even better about Isildur being the one to later rule Arnor... as Elendur would logically follow.
Then, lo and behold, Isildur comes north with his family. It's a war summons of course, but maybe they made other plans as well. Plans for Isildur to rule Arnor after Elendil. Maybe Elendil even tried to sell Isildur's wife on the idea... and maybe she began to fall in love with the north (maybe Elendil even arranged engagements with northern girls for all those fine young princely sons of hers!). And after over 100 years, the people of the north finally had hope for a queen.
But it was not to be - except that Isildur's wife was queen in name only for a couple years... between the time that word came of Elendil's death and the time that word came of Isildur's death.
In which case, if all my guesses are 'right' - when Valandil eventually married, Arnor finally had its first queen... 200 years after the kingdom was established.
In the PoMe chapter about earlier versions of The Akallabeth there are older versions of the Amandil/Elendil/Ar-Pharazon/Miriel stories. One of the earliest indicates that Elendil WAS the same age as Ar-Pharazon, but that was part of - or led into - a version where Amandil had a brother named Elentil - who was ALMOST engaged to Miriel (a different name for her was mostly used though) - until she saw her cousin Pharazon and was actually smitten by him. Even that almost gives the indication that the foursome were all in the same age range - since three were involved in a sort of 'love triangle' and the fourth was brother to one of them.
Anyway, the later version of the story - as it was published in The Silmarillion mentions that Amandil and Pharazon were 'friends from their youth' (EDIT: book handy - actual quote is "In the days of their youth together, Amandil had been dear to Pharazon,...") - which I take to mean that both are about the same age. And again, that earlier version seems to fit with 13 kings of Numenor, each coming to the throne at about 110 or 120 years of age and reigning for 240 or so - and the Fall of Numenor coming after Pharazon reigned for 220 years.
Also re-checked UT: it still seems odd for Elendil to be vigorous enough to battle Sauron at 322, when the last kings of Numenor were dying at 220 to either side of 230. Of course, that same argument could apply to Elendil's grandsons living to 280 and 260 (unless this was due to being Faithful - as lifespans on the island shortened even more as they drifted in obedience) - so maybe JRRT would have had to re-write the whole thing, at which point we just throw up our hands over the whole matter.
So, I'm inclined to see Amandil, rather than Elendil, as a contemporary of Pharazon - but maybe there's too little to go on - as it'd be hard to say just how JRRT would have smoothed out the rough edges, if given limitless time to resolve it all. (EDIT: but I'll go with the 'preponderance of the evidence'... for at least with Elendil and his heirs, if he died fighting Sauron at say 262, instead of 322 - it's reasonable that he had a grandson live to 280 - and we can attribute their ages surpassing the kings to being 'Faithful' - for while Tar-Palantir was, and died at 220 - we're told that he was 'weary from grief')
