Was Éowyn's defiance of 👑King Théoden justified?

[Rhiannon]

I'm a great defender of the Eowyn really did love Aragorn theory, not because of any dislike of Faramir or my over active Aragorn admiration, but simply due to my A. Beliefs on love and B. my experiences with love.

And Eowyn really did love Aragorn, just not in the way she thought she did.

However, in the one time we see Eowyn address Aragorn after the Faramir thing she seems kindly disposed towards him but not embarrassed or bitter as I think she would be if she'd realized it was just a kid crushed (Embarrassed if she recovered in an "I CAN'T believe what I was doing because of this guy! He must think I'm such an idiot. ..and what would Faramir say if he knew? Or Eomer! Eomer will never let me forget it. . .like the time I said I wanted to marry the captain of the guards. He teased me for six months. And I was SEVEN! . . ." kind of way.

...that's because it wasn't really a 'crush', either. Nor was it 'true' love. It was primarily admiration above all else, which Aragorn himself says, and later Faramir.

Only in maintaining love but growing it into the sort that wants the best for the other person instead of the best for yourself (Agape over Erros to bring up those Greek words), can what Eowyn reached be achieved.

Very true, I agree that far. But I can't get around the idea of having 'true' love for two people- you can love/admire/be fond of/border-line in love with someone, but not have true love for more than one person. So maybe this is just a hang-up on my part, but to say Eowyn is really still in love with Aragorn, to me, completely cheapens her love for Faramir- and in case no one has noticed this, Eowyn and Faramir are the most important part of the book to me. "Well Eowyn and Faramir do this- and oh yeah, there was this thing with a ring."

Not personally. . . Isn't there a stay at home and write option?

Well, okay...Elgee doesn't want to go down fighting, but that's okay. But Eowyn wanted to go down fighting, which is the point.

At the cost of others, yes.

My point is that is wasn't at the cost of others.

She was breaking promises. You have to remember that she was appointed by Theoden at the REQUEST pf the people. I imagine there was near panic when they realized she was gone. They probably felt abandoned. However, I imagine they forgave her when they heard what happened.

At the reguest of Hama, you mean. I rather thing, especially as she had the support of Elfhelm, that arrangments had been made.

For the love of his princess? Yes, probably.

I don't really think so, myself.

I wouldn't say her feelings are of inadequacy. Rather she didn't know what she had to live for or the reason to live. I've felt that way before due to love. It's lonely and you think, "What am I going to do without him? Without the life I wanted for us?" I think the battle and death in it was an easy answer to that question.

I object to pinning all Eowyn's motivations on love. There was so much else going on! Gandalf said to Eomer, "My friend, you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seem to her more ignoble than that of the staff that he leaned on. Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Theoden's ears?...My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips, you might have heard even such things as these escapte them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?" Of course she felt inadequate! Her feelings of being trapped, useless, left behind, all started before Aragorn ever showed up!

Love has a dozen faces. I think she eventually loved Faramir a LOT more.

Eventually is what I take issue with- I think she realized she loved him more truly and deeply almost immediately, once she admitted it to herself.

Anyway, I think that right outways wrong. I think the wrong was broken promises.

Yes, conceded. As a subject she did the wrong thing. I can agree with that. But for herself, it was the right thing to do.

In our world, no. In Tolkien's, yes. Think Beren and Luthien. Think Arwen and Aragorn.

...which I don't find particularly romantic myself, but I do understand that they are meant to be Romantic in the very capital 'R' sense. The very reason I prefer Eowyn and Faramir so much more is that it's on a human level. Not a great epic white horse-fainting damsel-complete 3 impossible tasks-wall of fire kind of level. Arwen as a character was invented specifically to echo Luthien (poor Arwen, she does get shortchanged. I don't dislike her as much as I used to).

...and this has taken the thread way off topic, as much as I enjoy arguing about it. Is there another thread on the subject we can move to?

 

[HLGStrider]

And Eowyn really did love Aragorn, just not in the way she thought she did.

I think she was very aware of the way she felt at sometimes and not in others. . .we never exactly know what she's thinking. We just hear other people saying what they think she's thinking.

...that's because it wasn't really a 'crush', either. Nor was it 'true' love. It was primarily admiration above all else, which Aragorn himself says, and later Faramir.

I think true love in this case is a deceptive phrase. It implies the other type is false. I think what Eowyn had would've been disappointed in that Aragorn was actually human, it was slightly romantisized, but I think it was mostly true, as opposed to false. If it was admiration, it was taken to the level of infatuation which is basically the same as a crush. . .and brothers tease no matter how real it is.

But I can't get around the idea of having 'true' love for two people- you can love/admire/be fond of/border-line in love with someone, but not have true love for more than one person.

Again, we'd have to define true love. . .I think it is obviously possible to love twice, otherwise widows wouldn't ever remarry, and we know they do occasionally. You mean two living men at the same time, however. I really believe it is. I know I will always love the man I love now even if he never loves me back. I also know that someday I will find a mutual lover and marry him. . .hopefully the boy I love now. (Crosses fingers)

Well, okay...Elgee doesn't want to go down fighting, but that's okay.

Nope. No fighting. I'll stay by the fire and purr. . .

But Eowyn wanted to go down fighting, which is the point.

She wanted to go down. She could've gone down fighting at home.

At the reguest of Hama, you mean. I rather thing, especially as she had the support of Elfhelm, that arrangments had been made.

Hama by the request of the people. . .at least he made it seem so. . .all that "the people love your house" stuff.

I don't really think so, myself.

I do. There is a fondness for a monarch that isn't easy to turn down.

I object to pinning all Eowyn's motivations on love.

I do think it is a little far fetched to putting it all on love. She would've wanted to fight without the love. It certainly helped motivate her, however. I think she may have suffered to stay because of duty and love for her uncle and people if Aragorn hadn't added that final tinge of desperation. I think it was him that put the idea of dying in her head.

Of course she felt inadequate! Her feelings of being trapped, useless, left behind, all started before Aragorn ever showed up!

But I wouldn't say inadequate. She knew she could fight. She knew she could comfort a dotard. She knew this, she knew that. . .

I think this is the key to that quote:

My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty

Duty.
Yes, she felt her job was ignoble. However, she felt she had to do it because of duty. She had to stay in that terrible place with that terrible Worm. She had to care for her uncle. I never see a place where she gains self-worth. I don't think that was what her quest was about. Purpose,yes. I see places where she finds purpose, but self-worth, no. She felt she was capable of more. She felt she deserved more. Otherwise she would've shrunk into the dust before Aragorn instead of reaching for him.

Eventually is what I take issue with- I think she realized she loved him more truly and deeply almost immediately, once she admitted it to herself.

About when he kissed her, I'd say. Before that it was Aragorn.

which I don't find particularly romantic myself, but I do understand that they are meant to be Romantic in the very capital 'R' sense.

It's due to the purity of Middle Earth. It's a bad guys where black hats sort of world. You can look into someone's eyes and read their heart. It doesn't take much to sense good from evil. Aragorn more than loved Arwen at first sight. He knew Arwen at first sight.

 

[Rhiannon]

I think true love in this case is a deceptive phrase. It implies the other type is false. I think what Eowyn had would've been disappointed in that Aragorn was actually human, it was slightly romantisized, but I think it was mostly true, as opposed to false. If it was admiration, it was taken to the level of infatuation which is basically the same as a crush. . .and brothers tease no matter how real it is.

All right- it is deceptive, I suppose. Her love for Aragorn is most certainly not false, although her interpretation of it might have been. It was admiration, but not a crush- rather as a last desperate way out.

Again, we'd have to define true love. . .I think it is obviously possible to love twice, otherwise widows wouldn't ever remarry, and we know they do occasionally. You mean two living men at the same time, however. I really believe it is.

It is possible to love twice, and possible to love two living men at the same time, but they are different kinds of love. "...different mode and intensity" as Tolkien puts it.

She wanted to go down. She could've gone down fighting at home.

I covered this already. No she couldn't. She couldn't sit and wait.

Hama by the request of the people. . .at least he made it seem so. . .all that "the people love your house" stuff.

It's not like he ran out and asked for a show of hands or anything.

I do think it is a little far fetched to putting it all on love. She would've wanted to fight without the love. It certainly helped motivate her, however. I think she may have suffered to stay because of duty and love for her uncle and people if Aragorn hadn't added that final tinge of desperation. I think it was him that put the idea of dying in her head.

He was the catalyst, yes. Because she saw him as her last chance and her turned her down.

Duty.
Yes, she felt her job was ignoble. However, she felt she had to do it because of duty. She had to stay in that terrible place with that terrible Worm. She had to care for her uncle. I never see a place where she gains self-worth. I don't think that was what her quest was about. Purpose,yes. I see places where she finds purpose, but self-worth, no. She felt she was capable of more. She felt she deserved more. Otherwise she would've shrunk into the dust before Aragorn instead of reaching for him.

But that's exactly why it is about self-worth. She had no way to find self-worth in the situation she was in, and her confidence and spirit were being undermined every day: She was completely defined by her sex and her rank. Caged. She had to break out before she could find self-worth. If she had stayed behind, even if she had met Faramir later, could she have given herself to him, when she was still trapped?

It's due to the purity of Middle Earth. It's a bad guys where black hats sort of world. You can look into someone's eyes and read their heart. It doesn't take much to sense good from evil. Aragorn more than loved Arwen at first sight. He knew Arwen at first sight.

And I understand and accept that, which is why I refuse to believe that Eowyn and Faramir's love could be anything less than 100% True Love.

 

[HLGStrider]

It was admiration, but not a crush- rather as a last desperate way out.

I don't see this. I think it may have something to do with why she chose to love Aragorn. He did offer a better life than what she had. However, I think she would've been content if he'd given her something to hope for, a purpose if you will. "I can wait for him to come back" type of thing.

I truly believe, had Aragorn not been involved already and had he somehow loved her, Eowyn and Aragorn could've been a happy couple. . .though I doubt she would've liked portions of their lives together due to the responsiblities of queenship. She would've had to compromise somethings, but it could've been done.

It is possible to love twice, and possible to love two living men at the same time, but they are different kinds of love. "...different mode and intensity" as Tolkien puts it.

Yes, but not less true. Obviously romantic love for two men at once would be inconvenient to say the least.

I covered this already. No she couldn't. She couldn't sit and wait.

Why not? I think she could've. She didn't want to. It may have made her more bitter, but she could've, and if it hadn't been for desperation I think she might've. Aragorn gave Eowyn the thrust she needed to put aside duty in favor of desperation.

I think that if she'd have been thinking clearly the duty would've appealed to her.

It's not like he ran out and asked for a show of hands or anything.

No, but he seemed to have a feel for the feel of the people. .wait a moment. . .

I give up. I don't have time to look for the exact quote, but he did seem to be speaking for the people if not from them.

Because she saw him as her last chance and her turned her down.

I don't think he was a last chance. I think he was a man who she loved. I think love for a great man she saw as a great chance, but I think the chance without the love (a marriage of convenience where she didn't love him or just luring him into taking her with him due to her fairness) wouldn't have had the appeal or the effect.

She had no way to find self-worth in the situation she was in, and her confidence and spirit were being undermined every day:

On the contrary, I see a lot of pride in Eowyn. I see that she felt that her lot wasn't worthy of her. I can see that the effect Wormtongue had on her was almost making her despise the uncle she'd once loved. I think she knew this and loathed that she felt this way. It doesn't feel good to hate one you love.

I think Eowyn was dragged down by self at this point. Some of it may have been self-doubt, but more self-pity. She was looking for self-fulfilment, etc. She started to think more and more of her self, was temporaily shocked out of it for the love of Aragorn, you can see this in some of the joy of just looking at him though that could also be doting, but when rejected it again turned to self-pity. She decided to be self-destructive, broke out, battled something great, and was struggling between self-absorbsion and apathy when Faramir shocked her out of it. In his love for her she did realize something akin to self-value, but I think it was more that she realized that thinking of herself was not as good as loving another person. Before this her love for Aragorn was selfish. After this it wasn't. Neither was her love for Faramir.

even if she had met Faramir later, could she have given herself to him, when she was still trapped

I don't underestimate Faramir's wooing abilities. I think he could've done it.

And I understand and accept that, which is why I refuse to believe that Eowyn and Faramir's love could be anything less than 100% True Love.

yes, it's 100%. But love isn't one of those things that you only have a 100% of. She could be a hundred percent for Faramir and still have something left over for Aragorn.

 

[Rhiannon]

I don't see this. I think it may have something to do with why she chose to love Aragorn. He did offer a better life than what she had. However, I think she would've been content if he'd given her something to hope for, a purpose if you will. "I can wait for him to come back" type of thing.

She would have developed a martyr complex, you mean, which might have sustained her but wouldn't have been healthy (okay, so maybe the kamikaze thing wasn't so healthy either, but it was still better). Legolas says of Aragorn that "All come to love him in their own way." (good quality in a king, neh?) But the point is he didn't leave her any hope- he rambles about duty and leaves. Gee, that was encouraging. Well, so much for that. Once the door slammed she went and broke a window- she'd already abandoned Aragorn as a possible way of 'escape', which is at least a part of, if not all of, what made her love if in the first place.

I truly believe, had Aragorn not been involved already and had he somehow loved her, Eowyn and Aragorn could've been a happy couple. . .though I doubt she would've liked portions of their lives together due to the responsiblities of queenship. She would've had to compromise somethings, but it could've been done.

Yes, they could've managed. They'd have gotten along, they'd have even been happy. But it wouldn't have been the same delirious meant-for-each-other perfect kind of True Love I think her love with Faramir was: It would have been two well-suited people being fond of each other and sharing responsibilities and living space. Gee, that's....so romantic. Though Tolkien did originally have them end up together- you notice he changed it. I like it better this way.

Yes, but not less true. Obviously romantic love for two men at once would be inconvenient to say the least.

Not less true. Agreed. That's all ironed out then.

Why not? I think she could've. She didn't want to. It may have made her more bitter, but she could've, and if it hadn't been for desperation I think she might've. Aragorn gave Eowyn the thrust she needed to put aside duty in favor of desperation.

I think that if she'd have been thinking clearly the duty would've appealed to her.

Yes, she could've. I could've worn socks today. Maybe I would have been happier if I'd worn socks today. But I didn't. People can to lots of things; Eowyn was capable of staying. She was capable of resigning herself to duty. But I think it was better for her to take action. I also think that the duty would never really have appealed to her. She didn't want to be responsible for other people- she wanted a chance to take responsiblity for herself.

I don't think he was a last chance. I think he was a man who she loved. I think love for a great man she saw as a great chance, but I think the chance without the love (a marriage of convenience where she didn't love him or just luring him into taking her with him due to her fairness) wouldn't have had the appeal or the effect.

...You kind of lost me there. I can't tell whether you think she wouldn't have seen him as a chance without the love, or that she didn't see him as a chance or what...She saw him as a way 'out'. This was, I think, not based entirely on love, although it was given steam by it. Had she not loved him, she might still have asked to go with him, but love wouldn't have come in to it. She wouldn't have offered a marriage of convenience or try to seduce him or anything, she wasn't that kind of person.

On the contrary, I see a lot of pride in Eowyn. I see that she felt that her lot wasn't worthy of her. I can see that the effect Wormtongue had on her was almost making her despise the uncle she'd once loved. I think she knew this and loathed that she felt this way. It doesn't feel good to hate one you love.

I don't think she ever hated Theoden. She despaired over him, hated Wormtongue, but never hated him. And yes, Eowyn has a great deal of pride. But it is possible to be proud and still have feeling of worthlessness.

I think Eowyn was dragged down by self at this point. Some of it may have been self-doubt, but more self-pity. She was looking for self-fulfilment, etc. She started to think more and more of her self, was temporaily shocked out of it for the love of Aragorn, you can see this in some of the joy of just looking at him though that could also be doting, but when rejected it again turned to self-pity. She decided to be self-destructive, broke out, battled something great, and was struggling between self-absorbsion and apathy when Faramir shocked her out of it. In his love for her she did realize something akin to self-value, but I think it was more that she realized that thinking of herself was not as good as loving another person. Before this her love for Aragorn was selfish. After this it wasn't. Neither was her love for Faramir.

Her love for Aragorn was selfish before then, yes. Eowyn's self-doubt and self-pity were all wrapped up in each other. She had both. She was caught between the worthlessness that her situation and Wormtongue were giving her, and her pride as a member of the royal house and a person capable of great things. 'If you're capable of great things, why aren't you doing them?' etc. Yes, much of Eowyn's struggles were directed inward, though they were caused by outward pressures. When there is so much stuff bearing down on you that you can't handle it anymore, you retreat. The 'freezing of the lily'. I spent more time in fantasy worlds as an adolescent than in the real world because I was unwilling- maybe partly unable, but mostly unwilling- to deal with people. It's a protection but it's also paralysing.

I don't underestimate Faramir's wooing abilities. I think he could've done it.

I don't either- just a moment, have to fix my knees, they just went out- but Eowyn would definitely have spent more time rejecting/avoiding/running away from him than she did.

yes, it's 100%. But love isn't one of those things that you only have a 100% of. She could be a hundred percent for Faramir and still have something left over for Aragorn.

And I agree with that- what makes me insane is when people say that she had 100% for Aragorn with something left over for Faramir. My Faramir deserves the whole shebang, thank you.

 

[Thuringwethil]

posted by Rhiannon
Actually I didn't say that, that was one of my militant Eowyn fan minions.

*appears in a puff of smoke and salutes Rhiannon*

Minion number one present and prepared for battle!

Ok, gotta remember this isn't the Admiration Thread..

Right or Wrong? That, of course, depends from the point of view. She disobeyed the authority, and thus from the authoritarian view she wronged. But what if authority itself was wrong? The same goes for customs and tradition and whatnot. There's no even remotely objective truth there.

Let's take the humanity view instead, that is did she wrong against people. In that case, she didn't wrong against Thedoen although she broke his order, because she went forth trying to protect him, or wanting to die with him. Sympathetic enough, I think.

Did she wrong against the people left behind? Very hypothetic, since first there was no attack in sight, then the surprise attack was stopped by ents. But then again, what would she been capable to do if present and attacked? My thesis: not a thing. I don't know what some people here know about severe depression, angst and other mental malfunctions, but it seems to me that not much. I happen to know, and descriptions about Eowyn fit the picture. Her social status, the sickness of Theoden, Wormtongue's whisperings, war, etc etc had driven her to the edge. She was finished mentally, close to death. Aragorn's arrival gave her the push to do something about it, and she did. Desperate attempt that almost killed her, but ended up well.

So, last question, did she wrong against herself? No.

And closing this all, I'd say she did risk things and crossed lines, but not enough to say she was wrong to ride east. When it comes to it, she did the right thing. And to counter my arguments, feel free to point out that Eowyn was not depressed etc.


Then, about relationships between Faramir and Eowyn and Aragorn.. I'm not an expert in this, because I can't see men the way most other girls do. But when I read about Eowyn's reactions, it seems to me that her feelings towards Faramir are more the thing called "true love", whereas Aragorn is more "big brother" or similar object of idolization. There is some erotic feel, too, but that does not equal love either. Aragorn is great guy, good-looking and nice, surely something worth a thought if one is bent that way. But true love, and especially that pictured in Tolkien's works, needs to be the union of two equal souls, and this isn't the case here. Eowyn, never being in love, of course didn't know what it is, and was confused by her feelings for him. That also has confused several readers. (Confused me too, when I was younger and equally unexperienced.)

But this love-thingie isn't my strong point, due to circumstances. I'll leave it to our mighty leader, lady Rhiannon.

*salutes again and steps back*

 

[Rhiannon]

*appears in a puff of smoke and salutes Rhiannon*

Minion number one present and prepared for battle!

The calvary arrives!

Excellent post, Thuringwethil!

 

[HLGStrider]

She would have developed a martyr complex, you mean, which might have sustained her but wouldn't have been healthy

No, I didn't mean that. I mean that, even though it would've been second best to going with him, waiting for Aragorn would've given her hope which would've given her a purpose to live, and she may have been satisfied with that.

But it wouldn't have been the same delirious meant-for-each-other perfect kind of True Love I think her love with Faramir was

My definition of love isn't like that. It's more like the second, actually, with a greater emphasis on Friendship than comfort. Love isn't comfortable, not always.

She didn't want to be responsible for other people- she wanted a chance to take responsiblity for herself.

I think she needed to take responsiblity for other people. Rohan needed a ruler.

I can't tell whether you think she wouldn't have seen him as a chance without the love, or that she didn't see him as a chance or what...

That she wouldn't have seen him as a chance for love and I doubt at least consciously she saw him as a chance at all.

Had she not loved him, she might still have asked to go with him, but love wouldn't have come in to it.

Had she not loved him she would've asked to go with Theoden. Even she saw the Paths as futile.

I don't think she ever hated Theoden. She despaired over him, hated Wormtongue, but never hated him

I think she at least was to the point of wishing he would die rather than live the way he was living and that would feel like hate, even if it wasn't.

That, of course, depends from the point of view. She disobeyed the authority, and thus from the authoritarian view she wronged. But what if authority itself was wrong?

I don't think the authority was wrong.

In that case, she didn't wrong against Thedoen although she broke his order, because she went forth trying to protect him, or wanting to die with him.

I don't think Theoden was the goal here.

 

[Rhiannon]

No, I didn't mean that. I mean that, even though it would've been second best to going with him, waiting for Aragorn would've given her hope which would've given her a purpose to live, and she may have been satisfied with that.

I don't think she would have been satisfied with it...and while it may have given her enough hope to live on, it would be dependent upon someone else. If that would have been enough, she could have put her hope in her brother, or someone else.

I think she needed to take responsiblity for other people. Rohan needed a ruler.[/quoted]
'Needed' on her own behalf, or the people's?

Had she not loved him she would've asked to go with Theoden. Even she saw the Paths as futile.

She did ask to go with Theoden and had already been refused.

...you know, I think we've lost track of what we're arguing about...

 

[Thuringwethil]

Originally posted by HLGStrider

I think she needed to take responsiblity for other people. Rohan needed a ruler.

Ruler should be able to rule. Why not take some older commoner or sergeant? Maybe because the rule should stay "in the family", and all the boys wanted to have their glory, not stay in reserve? (I believe Elfhelm put some suitable person in charge when Eowyn joined his ranks.)

I don't think the authority was wrong.

And I think placing a mentally exhausted person to lead is clueless, if not outright criminally stupid and dangerous. Translates as "wrong" too. There were other much more suitable people for the task, but hey, they were guys and guys can't be left behind, right? Guys must have their way, right? Why didn't Theoden stay himself? Because he wanted a glorious death. Helm's Deep and downcast of Saruman were not enough for him, he wanted more. If the selfishness is the question, then let's question it! *evil grin*

I don't think Theoden was the goal here.

Not the main goal, but in "Ride of Rohirrim" is described how Eowyn moves from her original place in Elfhelm's éored closer to king and practically joins his guard. She loves him as a father, and is ready to disobey him in order to be with him when darkness falls.

 

[HLGStrider]

If that would have been enough, she could have put her hope in her brother, or someone else.

Do you have brothers? No, I don't think it would've worked. It's a different sort of love and a different sort of hope.

She did ask to go with Theoden and had already been refused.

What was I going to say. . .blah, I hate it when I save quotes and forget what I wanted to say to them. . .umm. . .oh. . .

...you know, I think we've lost track of what we're arguing about...

We're close enough.

Why not take some older commoner or sergeant? Maybe because the rule should stay "in the family", and all the boys wanted to have their glory, not stay in reserve?

In the family is evident. Plus, despite her training, I don't think Eowyn was exactly considered a soldier. I think it would've been ridiculous to expect her to be considered as such, considering the culture. I also think that it was a good idea to appoint her. I think she could've done a good job. She was a member of the royal family who was not needed in battle as far as they knew.

It needed to be a member of the family, the people wanted that. It needed to be someone they respected and loved. This someone was evidently Eowyn.

And I think placing a mentally exhausted person to lead is clueless, if not outright criminally stupid and dangerous.

I truly think they were clueless about that. They knew she was stressed but everyone was stressed. Eomer doesn't seem to realize that his sister was really depressed until Aragorn tells him so.

I think Theoden and Eomer attributed everything to Wormtongue and since he was gone, she'd be getting better soon.

I also don't think they'd see battle as a rememdy. I think Eowyn didn't see battle as a remedy. I don't think it was a remedy.

Also, taking Eowyn along would have been stressful for both Eomer and Theoden. Eowyn was Eomer's little sister! I wouldnt' want to take my little sister into battle.

Why didn't Theoden stay himself? Because he wanted a glorious death.

I see overwhelming signs that though Theoden thought such a death would've been a good thing he also had hope. He wanted to live and was sad to die though ready and accepting. Theoden was needed on the battle field because his presence speared the troups on. They needed to see their leader out of the grasp of the enemy and fighting for his people. It was inspiring. Him staying home would've been a deterent to the fight.

She loves him as a father, and is ready to disobey him in order to be with him when darkness falls.

Then she wouldn't have asked to go with Aragorn. That would have taken her far, far, far from Theoden.

 

[Rhiannon]

Do you have brothers? No, I don't think it would've worked. It's a different sort of love and a different sort of hope.

Yes, and I still think it's possible. Remember Eowyn would be extremely close to her brother, and there was probably already a degree of hero worship there.

I also don't think they'd see battle as a rememdy. I think Eowyn didn't see battle as a remedy. I don't think it was a remedy.

It was a start. The very act of leaving was a start- it was the nasty oozy cleaning-out-an-open-wound before you douse it with hydrogen peroxide kind of start.

I wouldnt' want to take my little sister into battle.

I would...my little sister is tougher than me (this is depressing)

 

[HLGStrider]

Yes, and I still think it's possible.

You don't have my brother.

The very act of leaving was a start- it was the nasty oozy cleaning-out-an-open-wound before you douse it with hydrogen peroxide kind of start.

Nice image. I think it did give a sort of thrust. She came near death, but she came out of it even more hopeless, just not hopeful for death anymore. Even death had failed her at this point.

I would...my little sister is tougher than me (this is depressing)

Mine has sharp fingernails. ..but that's another story.

 

[Rhiannon]

Nice image.

Isn't it? I never thought I'd compare Faramir to hydrogen peroxide...

I think it did give a sort of thrust. She came near death, but she came out of it even more hopeless, just not hopeful for death anymore. Even death had failed her at this point.

I think the point is that she was trying. She was at least reaching for something, even if it was the wrong thing. She wasn't falling in to a self-consuming numbness.

 

[HLGStrider]

Dang, this was an amazingly long thread for the subject matter. I am bumping it.

 

[host of eldar]

she was wrong I think but sometimes we must let the things go. it is our fate non could stop it. if I were eowyn I would go with the rohirrim

 

[Alcuin]

Is it possible to convert this thread into a poll?

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

from a character point of view, I'd believe everything happens for a reason. I know this is Gandalf talking about Gollum but in a way it makes sense for this, that Eowyn was meant to disobey:

Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death and judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of the Ring.

 

[adpirtle]

She was fated to do so.

Glorfindel prophesied that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, and you know how Doom with a Capital D works in these books. As soon as someone lays down a prophecy someone else, however far down the road, is fated to fulfill it.

As for whether it was right, well...she abandoned her duty and broke her word. I think for that she duly suffered. Again, whenever someone in these books breaks their word something bad happens to them, even when something good comes of their actions.

But alls well that ends well, to paraphrase Eru Iluvatar.

 

[Starflower]

I think Éowyn was right in her disobeyance.

I mean, not only was the decision justified in the end (Nazgul etc...) but she also had the right to act as she did. Eru gave all Men free will, and in exercising that free will Éowyn made her own destiny. Sure she was angry and had pretty strong death-wish here:

'Lord.' she said, 'if you must go, then let me ride in your following. For I am weary of skulking in the hills, and wish to face peril and battle.'
'Your duty is with your people,' he answered.
'Too often have I heard of duty,' she cried. 'But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?'
.....
'Shall I always be chosen?' she said bitterly. 'Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?'
'A time may come soon,' said he, 'when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised.'
And she answered: 'All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.'

But next time we see her:

There seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elfhelm, the Marshal who commanded the éored in which they were riding. He and all his men ignored Merry and pretended not to hear if he spoke. He might have been just another bag that Dernhelm was carrying. Dernhelm was no comfort: he never spoke to anyone.

Clearly Éowyn put quite a bit of forethought and planning into this, you don't set out on the Ride with just the clothes on your back - she would have had to procure the very least a horse, armour, weapons and other gear; convince a Marshal of Mark to take her on his éored in disguise knowing full well what would happen should she be discovered and stay hidden for the entire Ride.

She was no spoiled princess who wants to disobey a direct order on a whim, we know she was very nearly as proficient in horseriding and weaponry as Éomer, having only him and Theodred for company as a child - I would not imagine there being many dollhouses for her to play with in Edoras...

It is said that the end justifies the means, that is certainly the case here; more than that though, I feel that the simple act of choosing to act made the choice right, had she quietly submitted to her fate and stayed at home it would not have been a choice at all, simply accepting a task given.