Was it really impossible to defeat Morgoth?

Well no Inderjit - I was referring to Yay's statement that Feanor was the best at anything he set his mind to. In this case I was referring to his military 'genius'. This thread, after all, is about the Noldor's chances of defeating Morgoth and you are taking my post out of context. Leaving Fingolfin's host behind in Aman was military idiocy, I stand by my statement fully, and no amount of pro-Feanor spin can change that.

As for my incorrect definition of 'genius' - I wasn't even aware I had attempted to define it. I merely made a semi-humorous post to have a little dig at the Feanor fans. Sorry you didn't find it funny - but please keep your patronizing tone to yourself - I'm really not in the mood for it.

Well, Turgon, in reading YayGollum's posts, you must understand everything he writes is tongue-in-cheek satire from a viewpoint of loving evil & hating good like the REAL Gollum would see, don't you?

I really don't think Feanor was looking at leaving Fingolfin behind from a military standpoint - He was 'fey' as Tolkien says & an egomaniac run amuck....

He'd been pampered by his father all his life, told how great he was, etc., A legend in his own mind & says in his great speech to get the Noldor to leave Aman that he's going pursue even Vala that keep the Silmarils, doing greater deeds than Tulkas & Orome.

Later, even after the Doom of the Noldor is pronounced by whoever, Eonwe or Mandos, Feanor replies that not only will he do such great deeds that the Valar will hear of it, they will FOLLOW him.....

The dude's certainly a bit full of himself to say the least, so I don't think the problem is a lack of military stragedy, it's a case of over inflated ego & being totally out of contol to his emotions, which we see repeatedly from Feanor, from pulling the sword on Fingolfin to rash words, to the Oath, etc.

So, Feanor seems to think himself as the greatest ever, incapable of wrong & acting before thinking. You put that together & you get him leaving over half his potential force behind (no problem in the long run as they got there anyhow) & it gets him killed by rashly attacking with few forces around him & that probably would've happened regardless of whether Fingolfin's folks were shipped across or not.

And of course remember that Melkor was hard at work at the task he succeeded in concerning Feanor's fall. Man was I mad when I read about him refusing to give the silmarils to Yavannah (and it kept getting worse of course from there )

Just to be puerile and lighten things up, I love imagining "what if" scenarios. Imagine if Feanor, Fingolfin, Huan and Luthien were present during the War Of The Ring. Game over man (quote from "Aliens", but fitting nonetheless). Imagine the horror and terror entering Sauron's mind if the name “Huan” was mentioned. Just send Luthien and Huan with Frodo and Sam, and have Feanor and Fingolfin join forces with Aragorn, Gandalf, and the rest of the crew. This would turn the War into "sport" for our boys (and the White Lady of Rohan of course). Gollum’s destiny would unfortunately be altered, as he would become the crazy-bouncing, three-tiered rough & rugged rubber pimple chew toy for Huan.

I also think Feanor could have (and probably would have) killed Sauron single-handedly; seeing that it took a host of Balrogs, including the big cheese to take him down.

Well, did it actually take a host of Balrogs to 'take him (Feanor) down', or did there just happen to be a host there?
Would 2 have sufficed as with Fingon, including 'the big cheese'?

Remember:

1. We're talking about Feanor's skill in battle, not 'skill' as a jewel-maker & alphabet maker here & the fact is that Fingon was a 400 year battle tested veteran & Feanor was a 'fey' rookie when killed.

2. Sauron, despie common misconception, was a much greater Maia than Gothmog. Tolkien said so. I've referred to this before - HoME, Volume 10, page 414, alot: 'Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some greater, as Sauron, some less so, as Balrogs.'

So, we see that Sauron, unlike the Balrogs, would be a much greater 'spiritual' foe.
Yet, we also know that Sauron could be slain & return, although this seems to be a greater plot devise of Tolkien, but must remain within part of the History of Middle-earth & a weakness of Sauron as a warrior too.

from Bucky
So, we see that Sauron, unlike the Balrogs, would be a much greater 'spiritual' foe.

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Well, regarding Feanor, it’s certainly not because I like him personally; he was a selfish reckless extremist (as you have probably heard me say in other posts). But concerning Sauron, I don’t believe he would have been much of a contest to Feanor. Look at what Fingolfin did to Morgoth, who was infinitely more powerful than his sidekick Lugbúrz; and I'm fairly certain Feanor could have taken out Fingolfin; his half-bro. He was raging with fury over his dad, and so hell-bent on recapturing the Silmarils, he became single-minded and uncontrollable; which is why he would have laughed at Sauron’s petty mind tricks (in which; no doubt Feanor was his equal). If Sauron got in the way (and he most certainly would have), well; Hasta la vista! Also, in truth, Feanor was only marginally defiled by Melkor; which was amplified only by the death of his father and of course; the theft of the pride and joy of his own hands. In all of Tolkien’s work, Feanor would be the one that I myself would fear the most. Could he have taken Melkor? Of course not; but Melkor's puppet servant Sauron - his little apron wearing waiter, who was obstructing his ultimate goal in regaining his Silmarils; certainly would have been fiercely and mercilessly dealt with. Just as you have stated; Sauron’s warrior skills, and his tactics in combat were at best, well; weak.

We're talking about Feanor's skill in battle, not 'skill' as a jewel-maker & alphabet maker

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He had many skills; Maia and Valar alike couldn’t duplicate (or comprehend) some of the things he accomplished. The fact that he was mentioned as being the greatest of craft; or lore; does not imply that he was exclusively limited to those specific abilities. That was only to provide a setting, or partial representation (and/or sample) of his extraordinary overall abilities. A conversation between Gandalf and Pippin may shine some light and perspective regarding the power and abilities of Feanor:

‘About the palantiri of the Kings of Old,’ said Gandalf.
‘And what are they?’
‘The name meant that which looks far away. The Orthanc-stone was one.’
‘Then it was not made, not made’ - Pippin hesitated - ‘by the Enemy?’
‘No,’ said Gandalf. ‘Nor by Saruman. It is beyond his art, and beyond Sauron’s too. The palantiri came from beyond Westernesse, from Eldamar. The Noldor made them. Feanor himself, maybe, wrought them, in the days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years. But there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil uses.’

‘Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would - to look across the wide seas of water and of times to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work…’

Gandalf (Maia) being in absolute awe of this unique Elf says a lot.

I don’t believe it; I’m subtly praising Feanor; the one I have always despised (and still do). All the same; as far as this fantasy is concerned, I think Feanor would have disposed of Sauron fairly quickly (and I'm sure; if it were necessary; Celegorm would not have said no to his dad if Feanor had requested the temporary services of Huan ).

I'm not really sure Feanor would have bested Fingolfin in battle. Rage can work both ways and sometimes a calm, clear head is the most effective weapon on the field of battle. As for him beating Sauron? It's entirely possible I think: given that Gil-galad and Elendil managed to take him down when he was wearing the One Ring. Of course Gil-galad and Elendil were both hardened warriors themselves: whereas Feanor was something of a rookie.

I thought about the palantari.....

But have you considered that they are very silmilar in there make-up to the Silmarils?

The are both crystaline, shine from within.
One gives off light from the tree, the other the light from far away.

So, in truth, the same, 'technology' (for lack of a better word) was used to create both the Palantiri & the Silmarils. Yes, there was a difference & in truth, the Palantiri must have been harder to make.

BTW: it's also mentioned in the Silmarillion that Feanor made the Palantiri:

'And other crystals he (Feanor) made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear...'

On Feanor's skill as a warrior, it's total speculation. Since he went & got himself killed in his first battle, his record indicates he wasn't very good, right?

As far as Sauron being some weakling & not having the cunning of Morgoth, well the history of MIddle-earth doesn't bear that out at all.

In fact Tolkien says in HoME, Volume 10 (love that volume!), 'Myth's Tranformed' page 394:

'Sauron was 'greater' effectively', in the 2nd Age than Morgoth at the end of the First (Age).
Why?
Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low.
Eventually he (Sauron) also squandered his power (of being - author) in the endeavor to gain control over others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself.
To gain domination over Arda Morgoth had to let most of his being pass into the physical constistuents of the Earth..... Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, & waged war almost entirely by means of devices (raining down fire in the 4th Battle, pestilence), or of subordinates (Sauron, Gothmog, Glaurung) & dominated creatures (orcs, trolls, Easterlings, werewolves, dragons)'.

In other words, Morgoth had poured his power into other beings, no longer had it in himself, simply ruled as a tyrant & Sauron actually had more innate 'spiritual' power left in him than Morgoth did.

Does this mean Sauron could've taken over for Morgoth?
Probably no.
Morgoth gigantic size alone - Sauron was 'far smaller in natural stature' & Morgoth probably kept things in line through mere intimidation of how he looked & who he had been alone - there was no reason for anyone to know overtly that his power was dissapated was there?

from Bucky
On Feanor's skill as a warrior, it's total speculation. Since he went & got himself killed in his first battle, his record indicates he wasn't very good, right?

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Well, again; this is a “what if” scenario; where Feanor, despite all of his rage and anger still managed to muster enough sense to avoid a kin slaying; and desertion of his extended family. As far as his “record”; it seems incredible to me; but a gang of Balrogs is a bit much for anyone (even Ungoliant). It wasn’t exactly a walk in the park for Gandalf either; and that was just one; and not the chief either. Before the Balrogs were involved, he pretty much destroyed everything in his path; with little effort it would seem.

As far as Sauron being some weakling & not having the cunning of Morgoth, well the history of MIddle-earth doesn't bear that out at all.

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Well, I never implied Sauron wasn’t “cunning”; that was his primary weapon. And even if Feanor was unsure if he could kill Sauron or not; all he would have to do (if his pride would allow it) is take Huan with him. Since the One Ring didn’t exist yet; if Sauron were killed, he would likely have to go back and deal with Mandos and crew; and I’m quite certain he would not have been permitted to come back.

from Turgon
I'm not really sure Feanor would have bested Fingolfin in battle.

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That would indeed be a good one. I think Fingolfin would have been a more formidable opponent than even Sauron.

if Sauron were killed, he would likely have to go back and deal with Mandos and crew; and I’m quite certain he would not have been permitted to come back.

I'm not so sure of that......

That hypothysis is based on what?
All I can think of about Sauron dying prior to the creation of the One Ring is in the Battle of Huan versus The (Were) Wolf-Sauron. There Wolf-Sauron's 'ghost' would've been sent 'quaking back to Morgoth' 'There everlasting thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes.....'

So, it appears that Sauron's spirit would've endured, but not in Mandos. Likely, the same happened to the slain Balrogs I'd wager.

Mandos, or his Halls, was the waiting place for Elvish Fea (spirits).


And even if Feanor was unsure if he could kill Sauron or not; all he would have to do (if his pride would allow it) is take Huan with him.

The problem in a chance encounter in battle is that the Elves never said "I better take Huan with us just in case Sauron's around & he decides to turn into a Werewolf so he can kill Huan by himself."


Well, I never implied Sauron wasn’t “cunning”; that was his primary weapon.

I was referring to the comment:

Melkor's puppet servant Sauron - his little apron wearing waiter,

It seems Sauron gets so little respect, especially for a 'guy' that Tolkien states had greater power than 'Morgoth' (Not 'Melkor'), certainly Gothmog and, by his own admission, Gandalf.

From Bucky
It seems Sauron gets so little respect, especially for a 'guy' that Tolkien states had greater power than 'Morgoth' (Not 'Melkor'), certainly Gothmog and, by his own admission, Gandalf.

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Well, there do “appear” to be a couple of contradictory statements:

Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural [spiritual] stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control over others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself… [He] inherited [from Morgoth] the ‘corruption’ of Arda [the world], and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate.

And:

"This book indeed is all about Morgoth. Incomparably greater than the power of Sauron, concentrated in the One Ring, Morgoth's power was dispersed into the very matter of Arda: 'The whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring.'"

We are also speaking of The First Age; when The Ring trickery wasn’t in the picture. I think Feanor would have had a hard time getting to Sauron in The Ring situation. But its early in The First Age, and we are dealing with a very special, powerful, lunatic Elf with unimaginable rage (I don’t know of anyone else who’s body was reduced to ashes because of their fiery spirit). Also, if Sauron did not have to return to the Valar after he was killed (maybe after a bit of mocking from his master), that would imply he would be able to just keep coming back; over and over. I just don’t see that as being likely without his Ring. Don’t think Manwe, or even Eru would go for it; especially when there is no Doom or Ban. The Valar would be upset and probably miss the Noldor's kinship, but they wouldn't be outraged; thus much more inclined to help. You are still looking at this as if the Doom and Ban are still present.

PS - regarding your quote about Sauron getting so little respect - he must get at least a little; we have turned a thread about Morgoth into a thread about Sauron

PS - regarding your quote about Sauron getting so little respect - he must get a least a little; we have turned a thread about Morgoth into a thread about Sauron

YES!

Well, Sauron DID claim to be Morgoth returned to his servants in the Third Age.......

On Balrog and Sauron-you are assuming that power can only be concentrated merely in a violent fashion-Sauron was greater than the Balrogs when it came to cunning and technology, but the Balrog's were problably greater 'warrior's than Sauron because their powers were concentrated in that direction-which is why Sauron was Morgoth's lietenant, and the Balrog's were Morgoth's lackeys, Sauron was more of a general than a fighter, though he was more 'powerful' than the Balrogs, in the same way that Manwe was more powerful than Ulmo or Tulkas, despite being an inferior warrior.

Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural [spiritual] stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control over others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself… [He] inherited [from Morgoth] the ‘corruption’ of Arda [the world], and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate.

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This statement only makes sense when taken into context. First note the word 'effectively', Sauron was not AS powerful as Morgoth, he was relatively speaking, more powerful. Firstly, Morgoth had disseminated most of his power in corrupting Arda and it's creatures, secondly, Morgoth's foes were far more dangerous than Sauron's, leaving aside the Numenoreans, and the third part allows a theological connotation-Sauron still believed in a higher power than himself, thus was morally 'better' than Morgoth, whereas Morgoth was a complete nihilist, who thought that nothing else should exist in the world, apart from himself; Sauron was perfectly happy with the existence of the world, so long as he could order him according to his will-this trait of Sauron, which he spoon fed to Saruman, was the cause of his downfall.

It is also important to note that Sauron got his ass handed to him on mutliple occasions, and it took several Balrogs quite a long time to take care of Feanor.

On Balrog and Sauron-you are assuming that power can only be concentrated merely in a violent fashion-

Well, I'm talking about innate, spiritual power. Tolkien clearly states Sauron was 'greater' & Balrogs 'lesser' there. For purposes of this discussion (or where it's morphed), it's who would be a better fight or (as I'm apt to do), the spiritual strengths of Sauron vs. the Balrogs or Morgoth (not Melkor).

As to your point, I totally agree about Sauron versus the Balrogs on balltlefield prowess & have said so.
I actually posted this the other day on the 'Balrogs' thread:

I think one area were people get confused is the semantics of Sauron being called 'Leiutenant of Angband' versus Gothmog being 'High-Captain of Angband'......

This gives folks the idea that Sauron & Gothmog were interchangeable & equal in the heirarchy to Morgoth - Not so.....

I take this to mean that Sauron was second in command of Angband while Gothmog was the actual battlefield commander of the millitary forces (when Glarung wasn't leading them, like in the 4th Battle or against Nargothrond).
On what do I base this?

Because when Morgoth left Angband to go East to check out the newly risen men he left Sauron in control of the war & Angband, plus Sauron ruled Angband when Melkor ruled Utumno. Also, Gothmog constantly shows up in battle while while Sauron also sets up as a millitary commander in Minas Tirath after it falls.

Therefore, Sauron WAS second in command to Morgoth, & indeed ruled over Gothmog, certainly when Morgoth was gone. The only area where Gothmog probably had autonomy over Sauron was on the battlefield & (possibly) over the Balrogs as 'Lord of Balrogs'.


On your points about Sauron vs. Morgoth - good arguements & it shows you've studied that essay & are probably a deeper thinker than me (I've read your other posts, lol)!
I needed to reread that essay ten times to get it....

Yet, one needs to take into account that Morgoth was still bereft of almost all his 'spiritual' power while Sauron was not - Morgoth couldn't even take on Ungoliant when his Balrogs could for example - while Sauron not only had all his spiritual power, it may have actually been increased by the Ring. And:



secondly, Morgoth's foes were far more dangerous than Sauron's, leaving aside the Numenoreans,

Leave the Numenoreans aside?
Why not say, 'leaving aside the Noldor, Morgoth had nobody substancial to fight?'

You just can't do that.

from Bucky
Therefore, Sauron WAS second in command to Morgoth, & indeed ruled over Gothmog, certainly when Morgoth was gone. The only area where Gothmog probably had autonomy over Sauron was on the battlefield & (possibly) over the Balrogs as 'Lord of Balrogs'.

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Well, this is a grey area. As Gandalf said regarding Sauron; “Wise Fool”. If I were in Gothmog’s shoes, I would have been a gossip within the ranks, and said; “What does our Master see in this idiot?”

from Inderjit S
Sauron still believed in a higher power than himself, thus was morally 'better' than Morgoth

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Well perhaps at first; yet here is a quote from one of Tolkien's letters:

"In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to wholly evil as is possible (don't remember Morgoth having that title ). He had gone the way of all tyrants, beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit."


I think as time went on, the morality issue when comparing Sauron and Morgoth is irrelevant, and indistinguishable:

"In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and he walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void" - The Silmarillion

But; (concerning the aforementioned subject of Feanor killing Sauron); I still have no doubt that Feanor's first priority would have been to rid himself of this paltry obstacle; and would have succeeded with minimal effort; right on schedule. I mean, Feanor threatened and kicked Mel out of his house; and in shock and humiliation (and I do not doubt fear); Mel harkened! For Melkor himself to behold someone as being a dangerous, crazed psychotic; well, that's says quite a bit. Sauron would have been toast; or he would have fled to Mordor .

Well, I'm talking about innate, spiritual power. Tolkien clearly states Sauron was 'greater' & Balrogs 'lesser' there. For purposes of this discussion (or where it's morphed), it's who would be a better fight or (as I'm apt to do), the spiritual strengths of Sauron vs. the Balrogs or Morgoth (not Melkor).

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Indeed-I agree with you, sorry if it seemed that I was miscontruing your post, Sauron was problably one of the greatest Maia, in terms of innate spiritual strength.

Leave the Numenoreans aside?
Why not say, 'leaving aside the Noldor, Morgoth had nobody substancial to fight?'

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Sorry, I guess I need to clarify. When Morgoth fought the Noldor and the Edain, as well as the Sindar, Dwarves and Easterlings who opposed him, they were all in close proximity to him, and none of them had gone over to his side, like a lot of the Numenoreans had done to Sauron. Plus, the Numenorans were not involved with the affairs of Middle-Earth until after the time of Tar-Aldarion, and lived thousands of miles away-their forces at Gwathlo were (I believe, don't have the books in front of me) brushed aside by Sauron, and it took them some time to send a fleet off to help the Elves. But after Sauron's first invasion, the Numenoreans began to settle in Middle-Earth, as rivals to Sauron in terms of power, not as his enemies in the way that the Noldor+Sindar+Edain were the 'enemies' of Morgoth, waging eternal war against him-the Numenoreans merely wanted to increase their own power base in M-E, and they only regarded Sauron as an enemy insofar that he wilded a significant amount of power in M-E. Sauron was easily able to manipulate the Numenoreans, both in the S.A and T.A, in ways in which Morgoth could never manipulate the Noldor or Edain, though he did manipulate quite a few Elves and Men on an individual basis.

I think as time went on, the morality issue when comparing Sauron and Morgoth is irrelevant, and indistinguishable

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Well, yes and no. Yes, Sauron later began to believe his own hype, hence he called himself Morgoth and didn't allow his low ranking servants to use his proper name. (His higher servants knew exactly who he was, however, and so did, I guess, deep down, most of the Orks.) But Sauron was still content to let the world actually exist as an indepedent body from himself, so long as he could rule it as he wished; Morgoth merely wanted to destroy the world because it was not Morgoth. Sauron also could not be a sincere atheist-he knew of the existence of Morgoth, the Valar and Eru-he did not join in with the original discords of Melkor, he was only able to corrupt the Numenoreans by stating that Morgoth was the original god-he only stated this to further his own power, whereas Morgoth really believed this to be true.

By Inderjit S
he was only able to corrupt the Numenoreans by stating that Morgoth was the original god-he only stated this to further his own power, whereas Morgoth really believed this to be true.

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Well, I don’t think Morgoth believed he was the original god. He did desire the Imperishable Flame, and maybe he believed that if he found it he could be as Eru, but I’m quite certain he had not forgotten Eru and his power. Even if he believed The Silmarils were some kind of quasi Imperishable Flame, I’m sure he was still keen enough to realize that it wasn’t quite the same thing. Morgoth was simply a very powerful spoiled brat who believed he was so above all of the other Ainur, that Arda was “owed him”; and when he realized that wasn’t happening, he threw a temper-tantrum that lasted for thousands of years.

from Bucky
Therefore, Sauron WAS second in command to Morgoth, & indeed ruled over Gothmog, certainly when Morgoth was gone. The only area where Gothmog probably had autonomy over Sauron was on the battlefield & (possibly) over the Balrogs as 'Lord of Balrogs'.

Well, this is a grey area.

Well, I don't think you can say it is a grey area that Sauron ruled over Gothmog in the above statement......

He certainly was in command when Morgoth was gone, not Gothmog.
Therefore, Gothmog answered to him.
Also, chances are, you'd put your 2nd in command in charge when gone, not your 3rd.....


the Numenoreans began to settle in Middle-Earth, as rivals to Sauron in terms of power, not as his enemies in the way that the Noldor+Sindar+Edain were the 'enemies' of Morgoth, waging eternal war against him-the Numenoreans merely wanted to increase their own power base in M-E, and they only regarded Sauron as an enemy insofar that he wilded a significant amount of power in M-E.

I must agree with this asessment 100%, yet motives hardly change the fact that the Numenoreans were one heck of a foe.
In fact, Akallabeth says by the time of Ar-Pharazon, he had become 'the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth.'